Mobile Fidelity Analog Vinyl Controversy

[ROOSKIE]

I have had some friends with really beautiful and epic record collections and along with personally missing shopping in a store for music and handling the physical media.( Plus it is often a great way to support the artists and local businesses), I tried to add vinyl to my system.
I purchased about 25 albums to start - most brand new.

Nope, pops and clicks suck everything out of it for me. They are so distracting to me I can't believe I missed this point before diving in. Horrible choice for myself. Nothing else would matter to me in any way that would be trump listening to all of that. Especially when cranked up, yikes. I can handle most recording issues and even strong hiss, but never the pops and clicks and snaps and crackles from the vinyl playback.

I actually think it strange how infrequently these issues are brought up when discussing vinyl sound quality. These are horrid side effects.

Anyway, I appreciate that certain folks love vinyl and love to support something besides Spotify. Outside of some fools, it has played a good role in audio by helping keep 2 channel audio popular enough to warrant a lot of cool products continuously being developed.
There are as many fools who think they need a $5-10k DAC as folks who think they need a $5-10k record player so that aspect of hifi has nothing to do with analog vs digital.

After I did a bit of research into mastering and how vinyl is pressed by various methods and approaches I realized the fools who do not understand how a record is made and how digital is acquired and then is translated to analog would be wise to educate themselves. Most SQ variations are intentional and mainly due accommodating the needs of the format. Especially all he inherent limits of vinyl pressing and taking care to not overwork the cutting tools.

In any case this is a market driven economy that is very supportive of ruthless competition at great cost, so of course it becomes a variety of marketing campaigns rooted in us vs them with stupid phycological pressure to "take a side" and be the winner.

Personally I'll stick with my Spotify and hope that artists get paid something. I have all of my music all the time.
Plus SQ wise I was clear to me that vinyl is best only if it is fun to an individual.

 

[Digby]

I purchased about 25 albums to start - most brand new. Nope, pops and clicks suck everything out of it for me.

Is this recently? My experience is that vinyl of the last 10-15 years or so is, largely, crap compared to much of what went before. I think the remaining presses are being worked to the extreme, everyone is overbooked and quality has taken a nosedive.

I have some beautifully clean records - no pops, crackle or nasties, maybe a very rare light tick, but it is not especially invasive. If you have digital recordings that you are happy with, I see no need for vinyl, but there is plenty of music that never appeared on any other format than vinyl.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

The few pre-recorded cassettes I bought didn't sound good at all. My Reel-to-Reel sounds wonderful but the hiss between tracks and in silent parts is still a bit annoying compared to today's formats.

Of course it will hiss more than digital. But with a properly calibrated machine, because of the HF rolloff of the equalization (around -20db re 1kHz), the hiss should be inaudible at normal listening levels. Also, the NAB equalization standard of American machines was not very well optimized with modern mastering tapes, and this increases noise. To minimize noise, the CCIR (IEC-1) equalization curve should be used and modern mastering tape should be used, at elevated levels per the tape spec (usually either +3db, +6db or +9db). The (expensive) pre-recorded open reel tapes being sold today use the CCIR equalization curve and usually RTM SM-468 tape. This is a +3db tape, which means 3db less noise (from the elevated level) than that of a standard professional machine from all the way back to the early 1950s. A better option is to use a +9db tape.

Like anything electro-mechanical, setup details matter a lot. If you really wanted to go to the trouble, you could eradicate most or all the hiss you hear. Of course digital will always be quieter, but with some degree of effort, the gap can be minimized.

And of course cassette was never intended to be a high fidelity format. Considering the slow speed and narrow tracks, it sounds better than it has a right to, but even the best cassette recordings/recorders are severely compromised in the name of convenience.

 

[scottmckinney67]

I have had some friends with really beautiful and epic record collections and along with personally missing shopping in a store for music and handling the physical media.( Plus it is often a great way to support the artists and local businesses), I tried to add vinyl to my system.
I purchased about 25 albums to start - most brand new.

Nope, pops and clicks suck everything out of it for me. They are so distracting to me I can't believe I missed this point before diving in. Horrible choice for myself. Nothing else would matter to me in any way that would be trump listening to all of that. Especially when cranked up, yikes. I can handle most recording issues and even strong hiss, but never the pops and clicks and snaps and crackles from the vinyl playback.

I actually think it strange how infrequently these issues are brought up when discussing vinyl sound quality. These are horrid side effects.

Anyway, I appreciate that certain folks love vinyl and love to support something besides Spotify. Outside of some fools, it has played a good role in audio by helping keep 2 channel audio popular enough to warrant a lot of cool products continuously being developed.
There are as many fools who think they need a $5-10k DAC as folks who think they need a $5-10k record player so that aspect of hifi has nothing to do with analog vs digital.

After I did a bit of research into mastering and how vinyl is pressed by various methods and approaches I realized the fools who do not understand how a record is made and how digital is acquired and then is translated to analog would be wise to educate themselves. Most SQ variations are intentional and mainly due accommodating the needs of the format. Especially all he inherent limits of vinyl pressing and taking care to not overwork the cutting tools.

In any case this is a market driven economy that is very supportive of ruthless competition at great cost, so of course it becomes a variety of marketing campaigns rooted in us vs them with stupid phycological pressure to "take a side" and be the winner.

Personally I'll stick with my Spotify and hope that artists get paid something. I have all of my music all the time.
Plus SQ wise I was clear to me that vinyl is best only if it is fun to an individual.

A lot of good amps back then had subsonic filter buttons to eliminate the rumble from the grooves on LP's. I'm dating myself

I'm all about good sound but I don't claim to be able to hear even 0.1 THD like a lot of "audiophiles"...

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Is this recently? My experience is that vinyl of the last 10-15 years or so is, largely, crap compared to much of what went before. I think the remaining presses are being worked to the extreme, everyone is overbooked and quality has taken a nosedive.

I have some beautifully clean records - no pops, crackle or nasties, maybe a very rare light tick, but it is not especially invasive. If you have digital recordings that you are happy with, I see no need for vinyl, but there is plenty of music that never appeared on any other format than vinyl.

Yes, vinyl today is remarkably better than it was 'in the day'. The problem is that the people shouting that vinyl 'sucks', have never heard contemporary vinyl played on a good turntable, well set up. Both the records I received last night from Acoustic Sounds have essentially no clicks or pops. I really wish the haters would either shut up or take the time to listen to a good vinyl setup with good, contemporary vinyl if they are the least bit curious.

 

[scottmckinney67]

Of course it will hiss more than digital. But with a properly calibrated machine, because of the HF rolloff of the equalization (around -20db re 1kHz), the hiss should be inaudible at normal listening levels. Also, the NAB equalization standard of American machines was not very well optimized with modern mastering tapes, and this increases noise. To minimize noise, the CCIR (IEC-1) equalization curve should be used and modern mastering tape should be used, at elevated levels per the tape spec (usually either +3db, +6db or +9db). The (expensive) pre-recorded open reel tapes being sold today use the CCIR equalization curve and usually RTM SM-468 tape. This is a +3db tape, which means 3db less noise (from the elevated level) than that of a standard professional machine from all the way back to the early 1950s. A better option is to use a +9db tape.

Like anything electro-mechanical, setup details matter a lot. If you really wanted to go to the trouble, you could eradicate most or all the hiss you hear. Of course digital will always be quieter, but with some degree of effort, the gap can be minimized.

And of course cassette was never intended to be a high fidelity format. Considering the slow speed and narrow tracks, it sounds better than it has a right to, but even the best cassette recordings/recorders are severely compromised in the name of convenience.

Electro-mechanical loses to lasers and dacs every time. You remind me of a friend that had sound board recordings in FLAC high res and burnt them to a CD to play in his Ford truck with a factory stereo. He was convinced he could hear the difference from a 192khz mp3. Maybe you guys have magic ears...

 

[Digby]

Yes, vinyl today is remarkably better than it was 'in the day'.

My experience in Britain is the other way round, but then I think a lot of American records were notorious, especially in the 1970s, for being made of melted down BIC pens (pinched that from Fremer).

 

[amirm]

Yes, vinyl today is remarkably better than it was 'in the day'. The problem is that the people shouting that vinyl 'sucks', have never heard contemporary vinyl played on a good turntable, well set up. Both the records I received last night from Acoustic Sounds have essentially no clicks or pops. I really wish the haters would either shut up or take the time to listen to a good vinyl setup with good, contemporary vinyl if they are the least bit curious.

I hear dozens of high-end turntable setups at audio shows. Ticks and pops are routine and common. I jump out of my seat with each one. Then look around and see everyone else just ignoring them! I clearly hear impairments in the sound as well. Yes, good music moves you in either format but I just can't get past the flaws let alone get to compliment part.

 

[scottmckinney67]

Yes, vinyl today is remarkably better than it was 'in the day'. The problem is that the people shouting that vinyl 'sucks', have never heard contemporary vinyl played on a good turntable, well set up. Both the records I received last night from Acoustic Sounds have essentially no clicks or pops. I really wish the haters would either shut up or take the time to listen to a good vinyl setup with good, contemporary vinyl if they are the least bit curious.

I have no interest in "setting up" anymore turntables. They just don't sound as good, period. To each his own.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I hear dozens of high-end turntable setups at audio shows. Ticks and pops are routine and common. I jump out of my seat with each one. Then look around and see everyone else just ignoring them! I clearly hear impairments in the sound as well. Yes, good music moves you in either format but I just can't get past the flaws let alone get to compliment part.

Really, I'm not deluding myself - if there were rampant ticks and pops in good vinyl, I'd just be honest and say so (and yes, there are some even new records which have some noise). But on my own setup, and I imagine many more well set up systems, there are no ticks or pops which come remotely close to making one want to 'jump out of their seat' Also, at shows, vinyl hygene is sorely lacking - records sit out in the open and are subject to dust - the turntables usually don't have dust covers - the records are not usually even brushed prior to playback. Those are huge 800 pound gorilla problems which cannot be ignored if someone is remotely serious about lack of noise.

Please don't be that person who makes hyperbolic generalizations without due exposure to systems which might make you question your bias. After all, that is just scientific method, and that's what we supposedly do here. Right?

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

I have no interest in "setting up" anymore turntables. They just don't sound as good, period. To each his own.

Then you're not a customer for vinyl. Move on and have a nice day.

 

[Digby]

I hear dozens of high-end turntable setups at audio shows. Ticks and pops are routine and common. I jump out of my seat with each one. Then look around and see everyone else just ignoring them!

Yes, but be honest, at home you only end up falling asleep in your favourite chair listening to CDs, it is all together too comforting and predictable. Vinyl introduces these Pavlovian response like moments, in the form of clicks and pops, which enables you to stay awake longer and appreciate music better, as you are violently jolted back into wakefulness and concentration on the task in hand. Notice how, for instance, you have never fallen asleep at an audio show, yet how many times have you fallen asleep at home, hmm? Precisely!

I rest my case.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

My experience in Britain is the other way round, but then I think a lot of American records were notorious, especially in the 1970s, for being made of melted down BIC pens (pinched that from Fremer).

Some records from the early days had some percentage of 're-grind' which was recycled vinyl from defective records mixed into the supposedly 'virgin' vinyl. In any event, record manufacturers during the period did not prioritize quiet pressings - they were mass producers and their priority was moving records out the door. Even classical records, Angel being the worst, were remarkably bad in some cases. Telarc were OK usually, and DGG were good sometimes. But overall, the early days of vinyl were the bad old days.

You can still get crappy vinyl pressings, and these are usually newer music and / or intended for people who are not overly concerned with sound quality vs the music. The best pressings come from specialty labels which cater to people who want the best quality, and of course the prices reflect that.

 

[ROOSKIE]

Yes, vinyl today is remarkably better than it was 'in the day'. The problem is that the people shouting that vinyl 'sucks', have never heard contemporary vinyl played on a good turntable, well set up. Both the records I received last night from Acoustic Sounds have essentially no clicks or pops. I really wish the haters would either shut up or take the time to listen to a good vinyl setup with good, contemporary vinyl if they are the least bit curious.

Well to be fair you are excited because a couple records you picked up have almost no clicks or pops. Kind of speaks for itself. A treasure hunt on many levels.
It is cool that you love vinyl, I take no issue with that.
My friends vinyl collections give them great joy.

For myself I realized that vinyl is high maintenance and not worth it at all. Even perfectly clean records still have pops and clicks and other issues due to the inherent nature of the medium and its production. I found them totally distracting even when not jarring in nature and the occasional jarring moment was not cool at all.

Plus I often listen with louder playback levels.

Anyway there can be no case made that records don't have quirks, they are obvious. Whether that makes them interesting or annoying is personal.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

Well to be fair you are excited because a couple records you picked up have almost no clicks or pops. Kind of speaks for itself.

I only use the two I received last night as an example. I've got hundreds more.

 

[Waxx]

Certainly can't disagree with that considering cartridge prices these days, especially when making incursions into MC territory.

You can have very good cartridges for small prices if you skip the audiophile part. An AT-VM95E is better than a lot of the MM cartridges that cost +100€ and can be bought for 50€ or even less. and the best cartridge still sold that i know is an MM, the AT-VM540ML and costs arround 250€. No MC can beat it if you ask me... (and yes, i did use some of the usual suspects in the past).

Idem with turntables, the best ones are not cheap, but not ridiculous priced neighter and are mostly Technics. You can get a more than decent turntable (the SL-1500C) for less than 1K... Second hand you can find a lot a lot cheaper, but still top quality. I got a (technical and visual) mint SL1500MKI for 250€ about 5 years ago and i still use it. I also bought a mint Thorens 165 for 350€ (not including the cell) for a friend a few years ago and that is also still in use without any issues after calibration. You don't need a fortune to buy a big bling spaceship to enjoy vinyl and get the best quality out of it...

 

[MattHooper]

Nope, pops and clicks suck everything out of it for me. They are so distracting to me I can't believe I missed this point before diving in. Horrible choice for myself. Nothing else would matter to me in any way that would be trump listening to all of that. Especially when cranked up, yikes. I can handle most recording issues and even strong hiss, but never the pops and clicks and snaps and crackles from the vinyl playback.

It's a good thing, at least, that your distaste for these issues is so definitive. You don't have to waste your time with vinyl.

I actually think it strange how infrequently these issues are brought up when discussing vinyl sound quality. These are horrid side effects.

It gets talked about a lot.

There are all sorts of variables involved.

First, in terms of record noise, be it pops/ticks or background record hiss, there is going to be variation in set ups. For one thing, when I "upgraded" my cartridge from an old one that came with my older turntable, one of the first things I noticed was my records sounded less noisy, less background hiss.
I've read that a better cartridge will make for a more precise coupling of the needle in to the grooves - so where a "poorer" cartridge may tend to ride the grooves with less precision, picking up more of the surface detris in the signal, the well designed cartridge will sit further down in to the grooves picking up more music signal-to-dust/artifact ratio. I'm not competent to vet those claims, but it would at least jive with what I seemed to hear.

Second, my phono stage allows easy switching of impedance settings. I find the lower the ohm setting, the more roll off in the highs, so in lower settings record noise seems distinctly less prominent, when it's on a record. So you it can always be the case someone else has a cartridge combined with how they've set it up (VTF included) will influence how audible record noise will be.

Then there are variables of the speakers themselves. Some speakers may have a frequency response emphasizing record noise, or de-emphasizing record noise, vs others. Add in room acoustics. I play with the reflectivity of my room - when I add more high frequency reflection it tends to brighten the sound, making record noise more prominent when it's there. Cutting reflections reduces the prominence. So even people with the same speakers may hear different levels of record noise, even if they owned the same speakers (but in different rooms).

Finally there is personal sensitivity to the noise, balanced against other criteria. If for instance you actually like the sound of vinyl in terms of the sound of the music, you may be willing to put up with some additional artifacts (occasional pops/ticks/record hiss). I actually dislike record artifacts. I seek to diminish them. But I like the sound of vinyl enough to put up with occasional artifacts. I often running my records through my ultra sonic cleaner minimizes record noise to some degree. But I like vinyl enough to put up with occasionally hearing artifacts.

I don't care so much if I hear a bit of hiss or crackle in between songs. What I RARELY hear is record noise DURING the music. And that's what counts for me. If I do...I look for a different copy of that record.

I've demoed tons of vinyl for people and nobody has ever remarked on record noise intruding on the sound quality. In fact, because my turntable is in a separate room from the listening room, sometimes they can't even tell if I put on a CD/Digital track or a record (because I have the volume down for the needle drop, and whip it back up once the needle is down). They can be amazed when told they just listened to a record because they presume records to be noisy or don't sound very good.

In terms of my experience, I can imagine someone just not liking the vinyl sound vs something I'd play on digital. But the idea of someone jumping out of their seat or being so put off by record noise during the music is, to me, kind of bizarre. I'm switching between my digital and vinyl all the time and, unless we are talking about records that have some noise during very quiet passages, I'm rarely hearing these intrusive noise artifacts.

Personally I'll stick with my Spotify and hope that artists get paid something. I have all of my music all the time.
Plus SQ wise I was clear to me that vinyl is best only if it is fun to an individual.

My brother (as well as some other friends) is an indie musician. His stuff is streaming, but he's not making anything from it. He gets what little money he can from doing live shows and merch, especially from the vinyl version of his album. Most of his friends (and fans such as they are) are helping support him by buying the vinyl.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Even the big names that do make money from streaming, make much more money from concerts and merchandise. Streaming at best may get you noticed so people come to your shows. It seems it hasn't become the great leveler letting anyone have access to fame or fortune that many thought it would become.

 

[Digby]

That sleepify concept album was pretty clever though, anyone remember that?

 

[Dial]

Certainly can't disagree with that considering cartridge prices these days, especially when making incursions into MC territory.

You'll get your money's worth (& black backgrounds) with a $16,000 cartridge!