What do you mean by "we know that's not the case with the V" ?
-
Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
MM vs MI vs MC
- Thread starter watchnerd
- Start date
Do I recall correctly that the VN5MR SAS presents quite a high frequency rise?
I think this can be somewhat mitigated with loading, but I forget the specifics.
Bit different picture with 47k though.
The rise with different styli is directly related to the effective mass of the cantilever
The original VN5MR stylus had very low mass - resulting in a resonance at around 32kHz - that meant only a slight rise at 20khz which was easily controlled by the loading specs.
The SAS is (sadly) not in the same league - the resonance is around 16kHz - which some of the better aluminium cantilevers can match (the best of Stanton achieved 19kHz from a specially treated aluminium cantilever)
But like any stylus it can be tamed - the compromises with a stylus like this, is you have to choose between extension, and flat F/R in the more important 4khz to 15kHz range - when using loading.
In todays world, you need not compromise as much - just load it so that the F/R is within say +/-5db to 20kHz - then use digital EQ to get it down to +/-0.2db - using Minimum phase filters only (!)
There really is not much out there that can match the best of the mid 1980's - no one makes the boron or beryllium tube cantilevers any more - there was insufficient market to maintain the specialised and expensive manufacturing facilities. So now all we have are "porky" rods rather than tubes... the difference between a boron rod, and an aluminium tube is not the order of magnitude difference between an aluminium tube and a berillium or boron tube.
The other approach - that of shortening the cantilever to achieve low mass - was used by Dynavector with their legendary and wonderful Karat series - now sadly discontinued as well.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2019
- Messages
- 1,311
- Likes
- 2,392
I tweaked the intro post some more. Last call for input.
audiosciencereview.com
MM vs MI vs MC
It was a pain in the butt to get these shots. ATN150MLX, VN5MR, both NOS. Former is zoomed in. The ATN looks good (nicely linear) - the VN5MR I am not certain on - the patch looks a bit "teardrop" shaped - which could be a sign of wear...
audiosciencereview.com
I am requesting tonearm turntable data be included in every testI tweaked the intro post some more. Last call for input.
MM vs MI vs MC
It was a pain in the butt to get these shots. ATN150MLX, VN5MR, both NOS. Former is zoomed in. The ATN looks good (nicely linear) - the VN5MR I am not certain on - the patch looks a bit "teardrop" shaped - which could be a sign of wear...
(A phono cartridge is part of a system)
Bob from Florida
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Aug 20, 2020
- Messages
- 1,910
- Likes
- 2,191
The other approach - that of shortening the cantilever to achieve low mass - was used by Dynavector with their legendary and wonderful Karat series - now sadly discontinued as well.
Current product!
Would this be an example:I tweaked the intro post some more. Last call for input.
MM vs MI vs MC
It was a pain in the butt to get these shots. ATN150MLX, VN5MR, both NOS. Former is zoomed in. The ATN looks good (nicely linear) - the VN5MR I am not certain on - the patch looks a bit "teardrop" shaped - which could be a sign of wear...
Cartridge: Shure V15Vx with Jico SAS boron
Age of stylus: not known
Tonearm: Moerch UP-4
Turntable: Linn Axis
Test record: CA-TRS1007
Loading: 47 kOhm/140 pF
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2019
- Messages
- 1,311
- Likes
- 2,392
Constructive criticism (only because I am frantically redoing similar results):
While there is no guaranteed way to know for sure, it seems that your azimuth adjustment is off. Based upon going through this again and again, it is likely that your channels will match up better FR-wise if adjusted. It also seems to me that the useful channel balance number is in between, so the stylus is at around -23dB.
I too am seeing my right channel 2nd harmonic higher than the left channel for most--but not all--of my measurements. I am trying to figure it out. I made this by playing with tracking force and anti-skate. I helps on some cartridges, but not all. Still, this shows how these measurements can help with set-up.
Just for reference, this about the widest channel balance difference I will post -- unless I no longer have the cartridge. Then I write a disclaimer. I understand these all can't be perfect--mine aren't--and that this is inherently a part of the game. Some turntables were not meant for proper setup and we are now really seeing these things under a microscope. But I do like channel balance here because it forces you to be honest and it is a good sign of dependability.
HOT TIP: Put one of those little rings that often comes with cartridge packaging under the side that shows a higher channel balance, between the cartridge and headshell. In your case the left side. So have the screw go through it and hold it in.
I'll post an example of what I am posting later.
Is there a particular reason you are using side B of the clearaudio? Side A seemed better to me.
And what do you have for
Anyways, that's a super helpful measurement. Nice to see a compatible Jico.
Last edited:
That would make me happy as the minimum
Azimuth is set by my Ortofon test record at 1 kHz. It's the one with the lowest crosstalk in my hands. Other records show different results one way or the other. CA-TRS vs Denon XG7001 below:
Left channel:
Right channel:
And side A is worse than side B for my copy of CA-TRS1007, showing that wobbly pattern in one channel.
Perhaps to add RIAA stage if it was in the recording loop (or add "flat" if no RIAA was used).
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2019
- Messages
- 1,311
- Likes
- 2,392
Thank you. I'll compare to my XG7001. Mention that on your posts so people know.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2019
- Messages
- 1,311
- Likes
- 2,392
OK. So I am thinking Sunday is the day. I want to rerun a couple of measurements. I am now thinking that it is crosstalk that is causing that right channel 2H boost and am playing around with using that to set it up.
In the meantime, servo tonearm at work below 30Hz! Overall the consistency across turntables is impressive.
I believe highs are higher because of extra capacitance from RCA to XLR adapters used to connect DP-30L II to Flat MM
In the meantime, servo tonearm at work below 30Hz! Overall the consistency across turntables is impressive.
I believe highs are higher because of extra capacitance from RCA to XLR adapters used to connect DP-30L II to Flat MM
Last edited:
Yep - and like I said - resonance around 14Khz to 16kHz
Thanks for that - I looked at the Dynavector website a couple of years ago and they were discontinuing the then current Karat (17D4?) and there was no mention of a replacement.
I'm really glad to hear that they did replace it with an updated version.... with the cantilever that short, you get very low effective mass, and cantilever resonance pushed out to 50kHz.
This is possibly the best performing cartridge out there today - in quantifiable, measurable terms... the rest of the Dynavector range, caters to the more subjective parts of the market...
I have an older DV23 (slightly longer cantilever at 2.3mm rather than 1.7mm) - and when I measured it about 12 years ago, it was exceptionally neutral - flat F/R - I was measuring at 96kHz - so I could see the rise starting at around 25Khz to 30kHz - but could not see the peak and rolloff as my measurement only went to 48kHz
Unlike most of my other cartridges, it requires a mid to high mass arm, being a mid compliance design.
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2019
- Messages
- 1,311
- Likes
- 2,392
I have decided that for my measurements I will be posting two graphs, style 1 and style 3. I prefer style 1 because it is more clear than style 2 at the expense of squashing the FR curve a tiny bit, which is why I am limiting its range from 5 to -65dB for consistency. Then plot 3 4 to -4dB gets at the heart of the matter with a close up and distortion.
To save space, I am reducing the size once inserted as full image to save space. You can click them to max size. As I photograph styli to confirm purchases and wear I will also include them when possible. This can help with quirky results. This example shows an older photo. I'll re-do it with my better set-up and update. As I provide set-up and loading info in the graphs themselves my notes will not cover them a second time. But I really like how it was done above in Thomas A's example. I also don't think that some short anecdotes hurt either.
So something like this:
Audio-Technica AT7V
Notes
Any thoughts? Is it too much to ask for style 1 and style 3 graphs?
I use
ovdylimvalue = [-65,5]
ovdylimvalue = [-4,4]
respectively
maybe an exception for extreme results? (But keep 70dB range for style 1?)
To save space, I am reducing the size once inserted as full image to save space. You can click them to max size. As I photograph styli to confirm purchases and wear I will also include them when possible. This can help with quirky results. This example shows an older photo. I'll re-do it with my better set-up and update. As I provide set-up and loading info in the graphs themselves my notes will not cover them a second time. But I really like how it was done above in Thomas A's example. I also don't think that some short anecdotes hurt either.
So something like this:
Audio-Technica AT7V
Notes
- NOS, nude special elliptical stylus
- Signature A-T frequency response
- Japanese import that was an enthusiast favorite
- My preference for a medium compliance MM A-T cartridge
Any thoughts? Is it too much to ask for style 1 and style 3 graphs?
I use
ovdylimvalue = [-65,5]
ovdylimvalue = [-4,4]
respectively
maybe an exception for extreme results? (But keep 70dB range for style 1?)
Last edited:
Similar threads
