MM vs MI vs MC

[USER]

Your VM95ML looks comparable to a graph that I think JP posted before. More distortion but the FR looks similar.

Here's a question to everyone: what would wear on a stylus look like here?

I always heard it affected 15kHz but I don't know. Here are two styli on the same AT7V cartridge. The first is the one that came with it, which I bought used. The second is a NOS stylus. How worn is the MLX? Could wear be the reason? It has a similar rise of distortion and FR in the upper end compared to my own measurement (which isn't optimally loaded, but still).

 

[mackat]

How did you measure the C?

This thing off Amazon. Perhaps not the most accurate method? It seems to measure my DB6 loading kit properly.

This is a Technics SL-Q2 that I replaced the stock RCA cable with one I bought from eBay. It’s either Mogami 2528 or 2965 with Neutrik Rean RCA connectors.

 

[mackat]

Your VM95ML looks comparable to a graph that I think JP posted before. More distortion but the FR looks similar.

Here's a question to everyone: what would wear on a stylus look like here?

I always heard it affected 15kHz but I don't know. Here are two styli on the same AT7V cartridge. The first is the one that came with it, which I bought used. The second is a NOS stylus. How worn is the MLX? Could wear be the reason? It has a similar rise of distortion and FR in the upper end compared to my own measurement (which isn't optimally loaded, but still).

View attachment 205306View attachment 205307
View attachment 205308

I just bought the ATN-150MLX stylus new from Thakker about a month ago and have barely used it, so I sure hope it isn’t worn! It doesn’t sound worn at all - just pretty bright.

That is an interesting idea, though. I wonder how worn styli would affect the measurements.

 

[mattking52]

This thing off Amazon. Perhaps not the most accurate method? It seems to measure my DB6 loading kit properly.

View attachment 205309

This is a Technics SL-Q2 that I replaced the stock RCA cable with one I bought from eBay. It’s either Mogami 2528 or 2965 with Neutrik Rean RCA connectors.

Just out of curiosity, how long is your interconnect between the turntable and your phono stage (and which phono stage is it, btw)? The reason I ask is because there is almost a factor of 2 difference between the capacitance per length on W2528 and W2965, and it might shed some light on the accuracy of the capacitance meter. Also, do you happen to know the test frequency of the meter?

 

[Thomas_A]

Your VM95ML looks comparable to a graph that I think JP posted before. More distortion but the FR looks similar.

Here's a question to everyone: what would wear on a stylus look like here?

I always heard it affected 15kHz but I don't know. Here are two styli on the same AT7V cartridge. The first is the one that came with it, which I bought used. The second is a NOS stylus. How worn is the MLX? Could wear be the reason? It has a similar rise of distortion and FR in the upper end compared to my own measurement (which isn't optimally loaded, but still).

View attachment 205306View attachment 205307
View attachment 205308

I find it unlikely that it is stylus wear. Suspension differences perhaps.

 

[mackat]

Just out of curiosity, how long is your interconnect between the turntable and your phono stage (and which phono stage is it, btw)? The reason I ask is because there is almost a factor of 2 difference between the capacitance per length on W2528 and W2965, and it might shed some light on the accuracy of the capacitance meter. Also, do you happen to know the test frequency of the meter?

I see, that is interesting. I am not next to it right now but it is either 3 or 4 ft.

 

[mattking52]

I see, that is interesting. I am not next to it right now but it is either 3 or 4 ft.

Got it. So, let's just assume 3.3ft (1m) for the sake of argument (and since it's between 3 and 4 ft ).

Mogami W2528 is 110pF/m, so if this is what you used, 140pF from your meter seems plausible, assuming you had about 3.3ft of cable, plus the RCA connectors, tonearm wiring, and headshell leads.

Mogami W2965 is 57pF/m, so if this is in fact what you used, the the meter is probably pretty far off.

Which phono stage are you using? It could be the case that when the designer told you the input capacitance was 50pF, he/she might literally have been referring to the actual cap on the board between the first stage input and ground. Depending on the topology, tube vs. solid state, etc., there could be non-trivial Miller/parasitic capacitance that would be seen at the input as well.

@SIY did a good write-up somewhere about a simple method using a square wave generator driving the phono stage input through a large series resistor (value 'R'), measuring the 10% to 90% rise time ('tau') using a scope, and then calculating the C value from the relation tau = 2.2RC. Brute force, but based on first principles and would give you a sanity check on what your effective phono stage input capacitance is (if you were so inclined).

 

[mackat]

Got it. So, let's just assume 3.3ft (1m) for the sake of argument (and since it's between 3 and 4 ft ).

Mogami W2528 is 110pF/m, so if this is what you used, 140pF from your meter seems plausible, assuming you had about 3.3ft of cable, plus the RCA connectors, tonearm wiring, and headshell leads.

Mogami W2965 is 57pF/m, so if this is in fact what you used, the the meter is probably pretty far off.

Which phono stage are you using? It could be the case that when the designer told you the input capacitance was 50pF, he/she might literally have been referring to the actual cap on the board between the first stage input and ground. Depending on the topology, tube vs. solid state, etc., there could be non-trivial Miller/parasitic capacitance that would be seen at the input as well.

@SIY did a good write-up somewhere about a simple method using a square wave generator driving the phono stage input through a large series resistor (value 'R'), measuring the 10% to 90% rise time ('tau') using a scope, and then calculating the C value from the relation tau = 2.2RC. Brute force, but based on first principles and would give you a sanity check on what your effective phono stage input capacitance is (if you were so inclined).

As it measures my loading plugs accurately, I am inclined to believe that this is W2528. I made one or two orders of each on eBay at different times and am not sure which cable got soldered to which turntable.

I am using a Vista Audio Phono-1 Mk II for these measurements. Their Spark amplifier did not fare too well when Amir had it, so who knows how decent this preamp really is.

Unfortunately I do not have an electronics background as many do here, so I think that procedure to determine capacitance may be a bit beyond my level of expertise. I appreciate the information, though!

 

[mackat]

Here's a measurement of my Technics EPC-310MC that was retipped with some sort of fine line stylus, tracking at 1.25g. I am using a Signet MK10T SUT which was designed for AT/Signet cartridges. What do you make of the very high 2nd harmonic distortion in the upper frequencies? I know that certain Technics cartridges are known to develop suspension issues.

 

[dlaloum]

As it measures my loading plugs accurately, I am inclined to believe that this is W2528. I made one or two orders of each on eBay at different times and am not sure which cable got soldered to which turntable.

I am using a Vista Audio Phono-1 Mk II for these measurements. Their Spark amplifier did not fare too well when Amir had it, so who knows how decent this preamp really is.

Unfortunately I do not have an electronics background as many do here, so I think that procedure to determine capacitance may be a bit beyond my level of expertise. I appreciate the information, though!

I use W2965 for my low C TT... only 50cm - when added to the arms cabling, and the connection and the plug adapters, the end result is 60pf...

Realistically that is as low as you can get the capacitance for a turntable interconnect!

 

[mattking52]

Here's a measurement of my Technics EPC-310MC that was retipped with some sort of fine line stylus, tracking at 1.25g. I am using a Signet MK10T SUT which was designed for AT/Signet cartridges. What do you make of the very high 2nd harmonic distortion in the upper frequencies? I know that certain Technics cartridges are known to develop suspension issues.View attachment 205805

Yep, that TTDD elastomer used in that range of Technics cartridges is notoriously prone to deterioration (though I'm sure it was truly excellent when new back in the day)... that's actually what has made me gun shy about purchasing these cartridges, even when they come up NOS. At some point, my curiosity will get the better of me, though

One thing you could try is to increase the tracking force a bit and see if it changes that 2nd harmonic distortion characteristic at all; that could give an indication of whether or not it's suspension-related.

 

[watchnerd]

So I'd guess my new AT7V stylus is now broken in.

For the $155 I spent on the stylus, this is a pretty nice little cartridge.

I hate to throw down with the subjectivist descriptions, but it doesn't sound very "audiophile" -- and I mean that in a good way.

I don't get the sense that "I'm hearing details I've never heard before" (because the upper octave is tilted up).

It doesn't sound "warm" (because the upper octave is rolled off).

I don't find myself having "hairs on the back of my neck stand up at the transients" (because of some high Q resonance).

Nothing is particularly exciting or dramatic.

It just sounds pretty even-keeled.

 

[JP]

Does it dig deeper in to the groove?

 

[JP]

Care package from Japan.

 

[mattking52]

So I'd guess my new AT7V stylus is now broken in.

For the $155 I spent on the stylus, this is a pretty nice little cartridge.

I hate to throw down with the subjectivist descriptions, but it doesn't sound very "audiophile" -- and I mean that in a good way.

I don't get the sense that "I'm hearing details I've never heard before" (because the upper octave is tilted up).

It doesn't sound "warm" (because the upper octave is rolled off).

I don't find myself having "hairs on the back of my neck stand up at the transients" (because of some high Q resonance).

Nothing is particularly exciting or dramatic.

It just sounds pretty even-keeled.

I know subjectivism is frowned upon around here in certain circles (lol), but I have to agree with you.

I have an AT7V with a new stylus on it (<50 hours) as well, and I think it definitely rivals my AT150MLX in terms of sonics. I can't decide which I like better, but I do find myself just sitting back and enjoying music with the AT7V. It tracks like an absolute champ in my @JP-restored EPA-100 arm, and everything just sounds "right" through it.

I currently have the AT150MLX mounted, which was also purchased NOS, and the more hours I've gotten on it, the less I can really tell a difference between it and the AT7V. I think the measurements we've seen in this thread might support that conclusion

 

[mattking52]

Care package from Japan.

View attachment 206053

Beautiful. Let me guess - you'll pull out the XL-55II every so often and gaze longingly at it (and its unbroken factory seals), but never play it, right?

 

[JP]

Beautiful. Let me guess - you'll pull out the XL-55II every so often and gaze longingly at it (and its unbroken factory seals), but never play it, right?

For a year or two. I think I left the XL-88D factory sealed for a few years after I picked it up before I decided to try it.

 

[SIY]

Care package from Japan.

View attachment 206053

Is there a stylus with the EPC?

 

[JP]

Is there a stylus with the EPC?

A broken one, which is fine as it's good practice. Some day I'll find time and you'll help me with fabricating very small elastomer donuts for these:

 

[SIY]

Was the the body I sent you?

Nice stylus collection. You might even get a couple of them to work for more than a day.