MM vs MI vs MC

[EJ3]

Shure V15 III with Jico SAS/B measured on Technics SL-1210GR with KAB fluid damper:

View attachment 201747

It's close enough that the actual FR can easily be EQed with either analog or digital EG methods.

 

[USER]

Shure V15 III with Jico SAS/B measured on Technics SL-1210GR with KAB fluid damper:

View attachment 201747

Finally a Jico set-up that really works!

 

[DSJR]

Thanks so much for the above. The M75/91 and family using that body used to have a suck-out in the mid kHz region (3db minimum and 5dB in the V15T2 parent model). Good that the Jico styli don't peak the >10khz region to get the response flatter underneath. The V15 III was always pretty flat but I was shocked how much better and 'clearer' the VN35HE stylus was, without the hardness of tone the elliptical has (the years don't seem to make it worse on lightly used examples here in my Dual 701).

Anyone got graphs for the V15 V with SAS stylus? Nearest I've seen was for the M97 and the non-Shure styli were a mess I recall.. Shure only had a handful of bodies over the years and mixed and matched them around. sadly, the M97XE didn't have the laminated pole pieces its ancestor had I believe (I could be wrong, but there was a good thread on Vinyl Engine about it some time back.

 

[VinyLuke]

Anyone got graphs for the V15 V with SAS stylus?

See #517
I will do my measurments of V15 V-MR with SAS/B.

 

[Thomas_A]

See #517
I will do my measurments of V15 V-MR with SAS/B.

For the V15Vx SAS//B see also #562.

 

[VinyLuke]

With custom load and much more capacitance added:

 

[DSJR]

Oh dear - what have they done?

 

[Thomas_A]

View attachment 201769
And with much more capacitance added:
View attachment 201770

You could reduce the R to 30k I think.

 

[DSJR]

You could reduce the R to 30k I think.

Thing is in the real world, how many can do that? The V15V in original form (elliptical and MR) were if loaded with capacitance at 47k, flat to 10kHz with a 5dB drop to 20kHz followed by a death dive I recall. Loaded with less capacitance, the response tailed down in a straight line from 1khz to -5db at 20khz as tested by HiFi Choice back in the day. Loaded well, I loved mine until it met with an accident which fractured the cantilever at the pivot hinge point. There was a chap, ex Shure, on VE a few years back who was keen to resurrect the best styli for various models, but sadly nothing came of it..

 

[VinyLuke]

You could reduce the R to 30k I think.

Yep, now with 26k:

 

[Thomas_A]

Thing is in the real world, how many can do that? The V15V in original form (elliptical and MR) were if loaded with capacitance at 47k, flat to 10kHz with a 5dB drop to 20kHz followed by a death dive I recall. Loaded with less capacitance, the response tailed down in a straight line from 1khz to -5db at 20khz as tested by HiFi Choice back in the day. Loaded well, I loved mine until it met with an accident which fractured the cantilever at the pivot hinge point. There was a chap, ex Shure, on VE a few years back who was keen to resurrect the best styli for various models, but sadly nothing came of it..

Well not many, agreed, aftermarket stylii often require adjustments. EQ or classic loading are the options. Therefore, I think RIAA should be equipped with adjustment options such as the Muffsy Phono preamp.

 

[JP]

The V15V in original form (elliptical and MR) were if loaded with capacitance at 47k, flat to 10kHz with a 5dB drop to 20kHz followed by a death dive I recall. Loaded with less capacitance, the response tailed down in a straight line from 1khz to -5db at 20khz as tested by HiFi Choice back in the day.

MR at 47k 350pF is flat to over 20kHz.

Edit:

 

[DSJR]

So what the eff was Martin Colloms doing wrong then - answers on a postcard...

In the Choice reviews, the responses seemed similar. I can't scan them right now but shall if it's of any interest...

 

[dlaloum]

Here are some measurements I made about 10 years back- V15V-P with Jico SAS-B

You can clearly see why I constantly stress the importance of custom loading, particularly when using 3rd party replacement styli....

Also the importance of capacitance as well as resistance in loading!

(some of these also show that I had some experimental flaws in my process.... - most of them are good)

 

[dlaloum]

The amount of work / time involved in doing this sort of analysis of loading performance for a cartridge, is also why I continue to await a proper hybrid Digital/Analog preamp, which includes digital EQ, and a customised measurement record... you set up your cartridge, play the record, and the phono pre adjusts its own loading, and then sets digital EQ as the last touch.... This should not be difficult!!! (we have the technology!) - it shouldn't even be expensive.

 

[VinyLuke]

This is the best what I could squeeze out of SAS/B on V15 V-MR:

 

[dlaloum]

This is the best what I could squeeze out of SAS/B on V15 V-MR:

View attachment 201940

View attachment 201941

About the same as I achieved with 770pf and 26k.... you can get more extension, at the cost of a slightly higher rise in the high end...

Droping the capacitance to around 600pf will raise the highs by about 1db, but give you 20kHz at 0db....

But in my opinion, what you have here is the better alternative - keep it neutral, and lose a touch of extreme highs...

 

[dlaloum]

As an interesting aside, I have a model that simulates the electrical response of the cartridge and loading.... which also can be used to reverse engineer the raw response of the cantilever/needle...

Here is a V15V-MR stylus response "in the raw"

This clearly shows the Cantilever resonance at around 30kHz...

This would be pretty much what that cantilever/stylus would sound like if it were in an MC.... - note that even with such a high quality and low effective mass design, an MC using it would still show a slight rise in the high end.

 

[dlaloum]

Here are similar plots of the AT440MLa - the response reflects a high quality tapered aluminium cantilever - as still used in a number of models currently - I would expect those models to have a similar response - note that on these I have shown both the modelled response as well as the measured response - please ignore the modelled one, as I was experimenting with it at the time (it makes them harder to read, but I figured people would find it interesting nevertheless) - the AT VM cartridges seem to do best with very low capacitance (yes most people won't be able to achieve 60pf...) - and very low C with low R seems the best option.... circa 60pf/30k - at a guess, this would probably be where the VM540ML would be optimal too - as the C rises, the high end rolls off, but the electrical resonance also rises, and can compensate for the rolloff so at 100pf you might want 35k, and at 200pf 47k might be optimal - but you will be accepting a high end boost in exchange for extension - and might prefer to keep things neutral as far as possible and accept a high end rolloff... in which case these AT cartridges seem best with low R loadings eg: 300pf/21k, :

(edit: the smooth lines are modelled, the wavy ones are measured...)

 

[eliash]

As @SixtoeRodriquez says, “<Well> I wonder…”

If…

One could put the sytlus on the non -spinning record and record the phone stage output… whiLe playing some loud thumping sound through the speakers from say a CD player?
I want to do this myself.


Does anyone have experience with an RME ADi2 (fs), which is an ADC/DAC, can to advise what is the difference between the non ”fe” model, and the later fe model?

I want to do ADC to capture data (on the input side), and it would be nice if I could simultaneously do DAC on the out side.

@One could put the sytlus on the non -spinning record and record the phone stage output… whiLe playing some loud thumping sound through the speakers from say a CD player?

Hooked up my new Win11 laptop to the a . m. Toslink/USB converter (Yeah, no drivers needed for USB-Audio2.0!):

App. -50dB (peak levels compared over 30s with full speaker loudness, no amp clipping@600Wpeak - Steve Miller - Abracadabra btw.) with a clamped record, some spectral resonances at 10-12Hz (stylus suspension V/H? - not audible - meas. w. Audacity spectrum disp.), another lower, but sharp resonance @48Hz (room resonance? - somewhat audible), then spectrum level is declining rapidly, digital silence (16bits) above 700Hz...difference in sliding window LUs (Loudness Units reading from tc-electronic Clarity M analyzer) only ~30dB!

2 late remarks:
- Above levels are comparable because output levels from the digital source and the record player chain are matched to average vinyl output in my setup, i. e. assuming same levels from the ripped CD (here Abracadabra) and a vinyl version of that.
- The observed 48Hz resonance is probably a structural resonance from the mechanical setup of the speakers, directly coupled to the plaster floor, which transmits vibrations into the wooden rack on which the record player is placed, while both are resonating. This is backed by the fact that there is not much level difference in case a vinyl record is clamped or just sitting on that a .m. washer (as part of the clamping mechanism), allowing it to freely resonate. This also leading to the assumption that clamping doesn't seem that important for acoustic pickup, compared to a structural one...anyway, admitting this is not a scientific proove, but revealing some deeper insight into the "secret nature" of vinyl playback...