MM vs MI vs MC

[eliash]

Quite interesting, looks like the Clearaudio is a belt drive as well. In the waveform diagram one can see a beating (superposition) of the record and the belt influences at 6s, when the beating is minimum (both cancel each other) and later around 18s looks like the maximum (both add up). It looks similar to my SME, but with higher beating frequency, so the belt loop seems to be larger (belt longer) as in my case. Anyway, almost full cancellation means both effects do have the same magnitude...and also no worry...

One late remark, talking about the belt loop length means of course relative belt loop length, based on the platter circumference, on which the belt runs...

 

[USER]

So I finally got around to measuring the cartridges I own, which are the following:

Shure V15 V-MR
- VN5MR Stylus
- SAS/S Stylus
Shure V15 V-MR w/ VN5MR (NOS)
AT150MLX
AT 8008 Studio Reference (NOS)
Denon 103R with Cap Mod

Note that when I measure in 44.1, I get slightly lower high frequencies. (The ones above will look a little different than the respective ones I previously posted.) I am assuming that this is due to the different Audacity reverse-RIAA filters used for 96 and 44.1 sampling rates. Please see the below VN5MR measurement in 44.1 for reference. Finally, you can see the effects of the record with the consistent dip at 5kHz and the fluctuations between 14-18kHz.

All are great cartridges. I am pleasantly surprised by the 8008, which I got NOS for super cheap! Hope this is helpful.

 

[JP]

Way too much capacitance on that 150. Glad you got the script working.

 

[USER]

Way too much capacitance on that 150. Glad you got the script working.

For sure. I banged these all out on my Cambridge Audio Duo that only has one setting. Plus the Clearaudio Concept wiring has unusually high capacitance. I think I will be switching to that cartridge and setting it up with my Manley stage, which affords me numerous options. I'll be sure to post an updated measurement when I switch things over.

EDIT: I UPDATED THE DENON AND AT150MLX MEASUREMENTS.

I was able to lower the loading capacitance by 100pF so the results are improved. (100-200pF total is recommended, so I am still a bit above that.) Remember that there is a -1 dB dip at around 5kHz and some +1 dB peaks above 14kHz. This all said, below is my measurement with a 44.1kHz sampling rate. I think I prefer the anti-RIAA filter used for this over the one for the 96kHz rate.

And for reference:

 

[eliash]

Though being generally satisfied with my new Nagaoka MP-500 MM-cart for daily use in terms of frequency response, distortion, tracking and last but not least affordable original styli, I somehow miss a ready-made off-the-shelf and properly tuned MM-cart with MR stylus on the market.

- Is there anything on the market?

(...Nagaoka´s line-contact (Shibata-3?) stylus is well tuned into the cart from my perspective, but coming from a MR-stylus in a MC-cart, I subjectively detect some more overall HF groove noise, after listening to a variety of newer and older records...which could originate from a "less-line-contacting" Shibata cut, compared to the MR...)

 

[Thomas_A]

So I finally got around to measuring the cartridges I own, which are the following:

Shure V15 V-MR
- VN5MR Stylus
- SAS/S Stylus
Shure V15 V-MR w/ VN5MR (NOS)
AT150MLX
AT 8008 Studio Reference (NOS)
Denon 103R with Cap Mod

View attachment 130747
View attachment 130754
View attachment 130749
View attachment 130924
View attachment 130751
View attachment 130784
Note that when I measure in 44.1, I get slightly lower high frequencies. (The ones above will look a little different than the respective ones I previously posted.) I am assuming that this is due to the different Audacity reverse-RIAA filters used for 96 and 44.1 sampling rates. Please see the below VN5MR measurement in 44.1 for reference. Finally, you can see the effects of the record with the consistent dip at 5kHz and the fluctuations between 14-18kHz.

View attachment 130758
All are great cartridges. I am pleasantly surprised by the 8008, which I got NOS for super cheap! Hope this is helpful.

The SAS/S could be tamed somewhat whith a lower R. Below is the V15Vx with SAS/R at 27 vs 47 kOhm.

 

[Cadguy]

I just replaced the original stylus in my Shure V15 xMR Type V with a Jico SAS/B VN-5XMR set at 47k. I was worried about the resonance above 10K, but the only thing I notice is on orchestral music the triangles are more prominent. As much as liked the original, the stylus had over 1000 hours use and I'm quite happy with the Jico SAS/B.

 

[DSJR]

From old HiFi Choice measurements of the V15VMR (P Messenger, 1984), with low capacitance, the response falls around 3.5dB in a straight line from 1 to 20khz. With higher capacitance, the measured response was flat to 10khz but then a death dive to -5dB at 20khz. I wonder if the SAS stylus keeps things fairly flatwith low capacitance loading? No wonder aged audiophiles like the SAS styli if they boost hf in this way.

 

[JP]

All of mine are +/- 0.6dB loaded at 350pF.

 

[eliash]

I just replaced the original stylus in my Shure V15 xMR Type V with a Jico SAS/B VN-5XMR set at 47k. I was worried about the resonance above 10K, but the only thing I notice is on orchestral music the triangles are more prominent. As much as liked the original, the stylus had over 1000 hours use and I'm quite happy with the Jico SAS/B.

It was mentioned before that the V15 V xMR with its rather "dark" tuning will move soundwise into the direction of the V15 V...Wonder if there is an audible difference between this and the V15 V with original MR-Stylus? If not, prices for used VxMR bodies could rise significantly...

 

[Thomas_A]

It was mentioned before that the V15 V xMR with its rather "dark" tuning will move soundwise into the direction of the V15 V...Wonder if there is an audible difference between this and the V15 V with original MR-Stylus? If not, prices for used VxMR bodies could rise significantly...

The V15Vx with its original stylus is definitely darker sounding than the SAS/B, and will probably sound closer to the V15V in tonal character with the SAS/B stylus. Depends on you audibility of peaking around 13-14 kHz. There is still however a slight drop in the 3-8 kHz range, unless you go for higher pF and sacrifice the top end.

The upper three are 130 pF with different resistance settings, the lower two are 600 pF with 27 kOhm/33 kOhm settings.

 

[Thomas_A]

From old HiFi Choice measurements of the V15VMR (P Messenger, 1984), with low capacitance, the response falls around 3.5dB in a straight line from 1 to 20khz. With higher capacitance, the measured response was flat to 10khz but then a death dive to -5dB at 20khz. I wonder if the SAS stylus keeps things fairly flatwith low capacitance loading? No wonder aged audiophiles like the SAS styli if they boost hf in this way.

That sounds strange. All measurements I've seen shows that the original V15V-MR was essentially flat to 20 kHz. Not so with the V15VxMR when the removed the laminated cores, which falls ≈3 dB 1-20 kHz with nominal loading

 

[USER]

I just replaced the original stylus in my Shure V15 xMR Type V with a Jico SAS/B VN-5XMR set at 47k. I was worried about the resonance above 10K, but the only thing I notice is on orchestral music the triangles are more prominent. As much as liked the original, the stylus had over 1000 hours use and I'm quite happy with the Jico SAS/B.

You should be happy. If you look at the respective measurements scattered around this and related threads, you are essentially getting the performance of a modern cartridge such as a $700 audio-technica one. There's a reason they are popular.


Even their top of the line carts don't look better to me: https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...t-art9xi-moving-coil-phono-cartridges-review/

 

[Thomas_A]

You should be happy. If you look at the respective measurements scattered around this and related threads, you are essentially getting the performance of a modern cartridge such as a $700 audio-technica one. There's a reason they are popular.


Even their top of the line carts don't look better to me: https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews...t-art9xi-moving-coil-phono-cartridges-review/

What I like with my SAS/B is that other measured spec was better than my original Shure and it tracks better in the HF region For example, I get -35 to -40 dB crosstalk @1 kHz which I never have got with any cartridge.

 

[DSJR]

That sounds strange. All measurements I've seen shows that the original V15V-MR was essentially flat to 20 kHz. Not so with the V15VxMR when the removed the laminated cores, which falls ≈3 dB 1-20 kHz with nominal loading

That's what I thought - The xMR and later models did have a slightly 'juicier' balance but I checked the printed results before I posted and can scan the review. Doesn't stop me revering the VMR as an excellent overall cartridge, if slightly 'smaller' in scale to the better exalted models as well as my priceless Decca Gold Microscanner (a wonderful can-o-worms this one and a masochists delight, but at the time, closest to master tape I'd then heard). Mine was damaged accidentally and no idea if UK based ESCo can splice the cantilever back together (the diamond is good and pretty low hours, so maybe...)

The V15 IV *was* measured as flat to 20kHz with a death-dive above. Can sound boring at first until one gets used to it and then it creeps up on you.

 

[eliash]

What I like with my SAS/B is that other measured spec was better than my original Shure and it tracks better in the HF region For example, I get -35 to -40 dB crosstalk @1 kHz which I never have got with any cartridge.

View attachment 132311

Top crosstalk figures seem to be more difficult to achieve with e. g. Nagaoka´s moving permalloy than with regular MM carts. Best balanced crosstalk (= equal crosstalk between both channels) I can obtain with an old RCA test record (@1KHz) is 31dB, whereas my previous MC Benz ACE-S performed 38dB (...appeared to me as high-class fine mechanics, even though, I am happy to get rid of IR-heating-up this cart to 25-27°C for best tracking and most linear freq. response every time - below 20° it behaved really poor...and significant Barkhausen-effect noise from the coil´s iron core...Nagaoka´s moving permalloy is much quieter in this context, even though existant...still have to check my V15 IV MM in comparison...).

 

[Cadguy]

Do Shure cantilever suspensions deteriorate with age? Is there any way to measure this? I ask because NOS cartridges do come up for sale sometimes.

 

[USER]

Do Shure cantilever suspensions deteriorate with age? Is there any way to measure this? I ask because NOS cartridges do come up for sale sometimes.

That's a good question. I imagine a lot would depend on how carefully the cartridges were stored. As far as buying any used cartridge goes, YMMV, and I personally try to be conservative when purchasing such items. But then I am no expert so take what I say with a grain of salt.

I do, however, believe I have been lucky in obtaining 2 well-performing NOS Shure V15 V-MR cartridges, with another NOS VN5MR stylus on the way. (I purchased them all from Japan.) They both have been measured as seen on this thread and they seem to perform to spec. That said, I ran only a simple measurement. As far as actual play, I have had no tracking issues that I know of. Certainly I am aware that I am purchasing and using 30 year old cartridges, but I really can't find anything else as good for the money--for my needs (flat frequency response, high compliance, stylus shape, etc.).

I would love to hear more opinions on this.

 

[eliash]

Do Shure cantilever suspensions deteriorate with age? Is there any way to measure this? I ask because NOS cartridges do come up for sale sometimes.

S.o. called these old styli "low-riders", I found this a quite adequate term. My V15 IV cart with original VN45MR stylus from the '90s slowly approches the record surface...this might be due to "drying-out" of suspension butyl-rubber? (don´t know what Shure bros. actually used, but somewhere I read that butyl-rubber is common and that ages definitly, though not as bad as speaker surround rubber foam...). Compliance might go down caused by suspension hardening, resulting in a higher arm resonance (> test record)...on the other hand, as long as the cart has a suitable gap to the record surface and the stylus itself is not worn out, I wouldn´t worry too much...

 

[eliash]

Found a comfortable simulation tool to play around with a RLC lowpass without programming it by oneself:
OKAWA Electric Design (3rd circuit)
Calculating the exemplary Nagaoka MP-500 w 800mH, 120pf and 47K results in roll-off without peaking

View attachment 123618

This leads to the conclusion that the previously seen peaking in frequency response (post #446) probably comes from the boron cantilever...
...and yes, good advice, going up in load resistance (82K) gives some additional peaking above10KHz...but don´t forget, it is on top of the measured response

View attachment 123621

So the essence is twofold,
- first you can find an answer to what happens if you change a MM-cart's load parameters,
- second is the overall response, or the sound might not change to the better automatically...

A late remark: Recently I read an article about low noise phono preamps* in which a an equivalent circuit for the electrical part of a MM cart was used.
Interesting was the remark that (...of course, could have thought about it myself...) the coil has a winding capacitance itself. This has to be added to the total external capacitance (tonearm + cable + preamp) to come up with a correct freq. resonse caused by the electrical resonance (neglecting the series coil wire resistance). Capacitances mentioned were 125pF or 185pF depending on the model, where the inductance was around 500mH...
...Next time I need to mechanically realign my Nagaoka MM cart, I will try to measure that capacitance for the above cart...
(* found in Michael Altmann´s german web pages: https://aie.de/pdf/RauschenPhono.pdf )