MM vs MI vs MC

[eliash]

Here is the zirkonium vs the boron on a V15Vx body. The zirkonium peaks around 10-11 kHz.

View attachment 125144

Interesting to note that the Jico´s? seem to mechanically peak at quite low (audible) frequencies. Under those circumstances one can be happy with currently discussed off the shelf boron MM carts peaking above or at the end of the hearing range...now it becomes also clear what Adamant-Namiki means by describing their zirkonia pipe: "This cantilever plays a charming sound that is different from other materials. "...

 

[DSJR]

V15IV was a funny one. I first used one at work in an SME III and in the burgeoning days of 'musicality' and 'air and space' (long before Martin Colloms coined the pr@t term!), the SME III/V15 IV combination sounded boring and rather bland. I was given a good working example of this cartridge many years later to try in the 701 and I found that after a side or so, one got used to the slightly less 'showy' presentation delivered by other pickups and just enjoyed the music being played. I still have it here with medium hours on the stylus and it's the same in other decks I have. Having compared the master to a freshly cut lacquer and then to the vinyl end product both made from the same master, I can understand the comments (advertising, I can't remember) as to how accurate the V15 IV was when playing acetates. Thing is, I suspect it's another pickup that reproduces vinyl as it really is... I just felt for my tastes and much reduced budget, the VMR seemed to 'pull it all together better.

I've resisted looking too closely at Jico styli as there was a lengthy thread on VE about them, with response plots of the 97XE body with SAS styli. The balance up top was very different, indicating the Shures were a mix of resonances as well as electrical characteristics to get the 'tone' the way they wanted. It was also discussed that they really didn't have very many body designs in their long life as cartridge makers and some were recycled into various different models as discussed above.

 

[EJ3]

btw., its brush seems just as a gimmick;

If your records do not have any warp when being played (NATURALLY or somehow MECHANICALLY FLATTENED to the platter) and you properly clean your records (so that there is no static charge): the brush MAY WELL DO NOTHING for your setup. As per SHURE's statement: It featured a viscous-damped Dynamic Stabilizer that OVERCAME MOST RECORD WARPS. The Stabilizer brush also CLEANED the record and REDUCED any STATIC CHARGE. Back then many were not as meticulous as we are now about such things.

 

[eliash]

If your records do not have any warp when being played (NATURALLY or somehow MECHANICALLY FLATTENED to the platter) and you properly clean your records (so that there is no static charge): the brush MAY WELL DO NOTHING for your setup. As per SHURE's statement: It featured a viscous-damped Dynamic Stabilizer that OVERCAME MOST RECORD WARPS. The Stabilizer brush also CLEANED the record and REDUCED any STATIC CHARGE. Back then many were not as meticulous as we are now about such things.

Right, actually the only thing the Jico brush is good for, is collecting some dust and generating pre-echoes, even though less than the original one, which added more than double the weight on the record (this has to be watched when setting up the Jico)...

 

[eliash]

V15IV was a funny one. I first used one at work in an SME III and in the burgeoning days of 'musicality' and 'air and space' (long before Martin Colloms coined the pr@t term!), the SME III/V15 IV combination sounded boring and rather bland. I was given a good working example of this cartridge many years later to try in the 701 and I found that after a side or so, one got used to the slightly less 'showy' presentation delivered by other pickups and just enjoyed the music being played. I still have it here with medium hours on the stylus and it's the same in other decks I have. Having compared the master to a freshly cut lacquer and then to the vinyl end product both made from the same master, I can understand the comments (advertising, I can't remember) as to how accurate the V15 IV was when playing acetates. Thing is, I suspect it's another pickup that reproduces vinyl as it really is... I just felt for my tastes and much reduced budget, the VMR seemed to 'pull it all together better.

I've resisted looking too closely at Jico styli as there was a lengthy thread on VE about them, with response plots of the 97XE body with SAS styli. The balance up top was very different, indicating the Shures were a mix of resonances as well as electrical characteristics to get the 'tone' the way they wanted. It was also discussed that they really didn't have very many body designs in their long life as cartridge makers and some were recycled into various different models as discussed above.

I remember having set up the V15 IV with the HE-stylus on my Technics SL-Q2 in the eighties (to be honest, not really knowing what I was doing, I think the brush helped), anyway the sound wasn´t bad (maybe somewhat better than boring) and I always came back to this one, when trying to improve with AKGs & ELACs in the same price range.
The real breakthrough (for me) came with the Be/MR stylus in the V15 IV, mounted in a Thorens TD146MK VI from the nineties onwards. Unfortunately I did not realise its unique value at that time, otherwise I still would have enough of them...

 

[Thomas_A]

The JICO brush does help. But some appears a need of adding som fluid.

 

[JP]

What’s the test signal for that plot?

 

[DSJR]

Being in the trade, I could have got reasonable prices on original styli and I'm cross I didn't I tend to find the V15 III with original stylus a bit 'hard toned' and I still have a couple, one the LM version Dual often supplied with 701's and 601's in the UK. The HE stylus was a revelation, losing that slight 'tense' quality. My V15 IV is an HE.

Not sure (sorry) we ever got the MR styli for anything other than the V15V/Vx in the UK. Our distributor (Veda by then, now Armour Home) always seemed to play them down a bit - I think they distributed Grado and Goldring too.

Something I've noticed in this digital age.. Many cartridges which were favoured back in the olden days almost always had an hf suckout which our UK made youthful orientated domesticated PA amp systems kind of favoured. Cartridges with ruler flat hf responses weren't at all favoured I remember - same feelings against digital and possibly for similar reasons. Today, the hf suckouts have been moderated if not removed but instead, we have ehf rises (>10kHz) to deal with - and many cheaper phono stages have limited headroom at these frequencies. Mind you, I think we have to go a long way to equal the Sonus cartridges from the late 70's (ADC descendants) which offer a flat response but with a 5dB+ peak at 28kHz, upsetting many phono stages I recall. I treasure my Blue though. I have a Garrard 401 'rumble box' coming my way once I can travel to collect it and the unipivot arm fitted will hopefully take my beloved Decca Microscanner.

 

[Thomas_A]

What’s the test signal for that plot?

Low frequency resonance test from the Hifi News test record, with a LP-filter. Don't remember the filter but probably around 20-30 Hz.

 

[eliash]

The JICO brush does help. But some appears a need of adding som fluid.

View attachment 125195

...Fluid in the viscous brush frame dampers?
Mine moves quite easy, compared to the original one...and diverts some 0.15g from the total VTF, if I remember correct...but it is good to see that it still has some effect...

 

[Thomas_A]

...Fluid in the viscous brush frame dampers?
Mine moves quite easy, compared to the original one...and diverts some 0.15g from the total VTF, if I remember correct...but it is good to see that it still has some effect...

Yes, peeling away the small covers over the hinges and adding tiny amounts of silicon oil makes the damper more functional. I've had 3-4 JICO and a few of them appeared to have fluid, others not.

 

[eliash]

Yes, peeling away the small covers over the hinges and adding tiny amounts of silicon oil makes the damper more functional. I've had 3-4 JICO and a few of them appeared to have fluid, others not.

Thanks, interesting, btw. did you try sapphire or ruby cantilevers as well? I think Jico brands them as SAS/S - SAS/R? Wonder if these are able to raise the cantilever resonance???

 

[JP]

@Helicopter - did you delete your other thread? Couldn't find it.

The version 4 syntax for the Nyquist Prompt in Audacity for inverse-RIAA at 44.1 is:

(biquad-m *track* 3.712404e+000 -6.429806e+000 2.724284e+000 1.000000e+000 -9.311757e-001 0.000000e+000)

This'll should work in the latest versions that don't have the "legacy" option. When I get time I'll work on getting all this information in one place so it's easier for folks.

 

[Thomas_A]

Thanks, interesting, btw. did you try sapphire or ruby cantilevers as well? I think Jico brands them as SAS/S - SAS/R? Wonder if these are able to raise the cantilever resonance???

I have two boron, one zirkonium. I used to have the ruby but that one broke due to a poor fit to the body, too tight. Tried to communicate with JICO about that but to no success. I measured the ruby, and it also showed peaking 10-20 kHz region and the level was higher than that of the boron. Similar to the one shown in this thread with the sapphire.

The boron showed the "mildest" peak of them all.

 

[Octopie]

I’ll be in the market for new cart soon. What are some of the most linear carts that are currently in production now? All these rises in mid to upper treble worry me.

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

........the SME III/V15 IV combination sounded boring and rather bland.

That's interesting - In the past whenever I bought a Shure V15, I always regretted it, and the complaint was always that it sounded uninteresting and bland. I still use a Micro Acoustics 630 cartridge from the 80s which has almost no stylus wear and still think its one of the best sounding cartridges I've ever owned. Its neither MM or MC, but is a ceramic type (highly evolved, but still ceramic).

 

[eliash]

I’ll be in the market for new cart soon. What are some of the most linear carts that are currently in production now? All these rises in mid to upper treble worry me.

...that we try to find out ourselves here. One thing is clear though, manufacturer and test magazine results have to be interpreted carefully...or in other words, a ruler-straight frequency response should cause some suspiciousness...

 

[Helicopter]

@Helicopter - did you delete your other thread? Couldn't find it.

The version 4 syntax for the Nyquist Prompt in Audacity for inverse-RIAA at 44.1 is:

(biquad-m *track* 3.712404e+000 -6.429806e+000 2.724284e+000 1.000000e+000 -9.311757e-001 0.000000e+000)

This'll should work in the latest versions that don't have the "legacy" option. When I get time I'll work on getting all this information in one place so it's easier for folks.

It is still there.

 

[DSJR]

That's interesting - In the past whenever I bought a Shure V15, I always regretted it, and the complaint was always that it sounded uninteresting and bland. I still use a Micro Acoustics 630 cartridge from the 80s which has almost no stylus wear and still think its one of the best sounding cartridges I've ever owned. Its neither MM or MC, but is a ceramic type (highly evolved, but still ceramic).

I do remember the QDC 282e and 2002 models they made and regarded these as softies (we had master tapes to compare until the Linn LP12 swept all sensibilities away back then, but on fairness, the LP12/Grace 707 and later Mission 774 wasn't a badly coloured sound - that came later). Again, not sure if we ever had the later Micro Acoustics cartridges over this side of the pond.

Shures needed to be loaded right and in fairness to the V15 III, I gave mine a spin this lunchtime and it's quite ok really. The thing is, many MC types do seem to add a lovely reverberant 'halo' to the sound which isn't there in the master. This effect is addictive and if you hear a cartridge that doesn't do it (I cite upper caste Deccas as one rather tetchy example), it can be hard to wean away from.

 

[Cadguy]

I wonder if the Parks Audio Puffin can be used to reduce the high frequency peaks in the JICO SAS stylus replacements for the Shure V15V. Among its many different adjustments and settings is a 4th order Butterworth filter to attenuate the following frequencies: 5khz, 7khz, 8khz, 9khz, 10khz, 11khz, 12khz, 13khz, 15khz, 20khz. I think you can attenuate any combination of these frequencies.