Mixing Headphones - Neumann NDH 30 vs. Sennheiser HD 650

[tomchmura]

Hello all,

I am a working musician currently in the process of mixing/mastering my first solo release. During recording and early mixing I've been using an old pair of Sennheiser 598s, which have been solid enough up to this point but am looking to upgrade for a pair of professional studio quality headphones. My budget is up to $700. I want to buy once and buy right. Maybe in the future I upgrade to a pair of studio speakers but for now I'm going to be moving around a lot without consistent access to a treated room and want to get a pair of headphones for the next few years that I can count on to handle all of my mixing.

My first release is a mix of jazz fusion and progressive rock, lots of layered synths over heavy drums/bass, and some guitars.

I don't need my releases to be audiophile level quality or get mistaken for late 70's Steely Dan, but want them to sound clean, professional, and balanced (and not an amateur basement DIY project).

I've been doing some research and have found two pairs of headphones I like: the Neumann NDH 30 and the Sennheiser HD 650. I bought the Neumann's to try them out first, and have been really impressed with the sound but also not sure of how to really test them or compare to other possibilities. I am much more of a musician that an audio engineer.

I'm looking for any insights on those headphones, and if they would be a good fit for my needs. If you know of any other headphones that could be a better fit please let me know. Thanks!

 

[DVDdoug]

Headphone sound is mostly frequency response and all of the reviews here show the frequency response overlaid with the Harman Target Curve. The HD598 SE is reviewed so you can compare it with anything else reviewed here. (It was only "recommended" when corrective EQ is used.)

Also see Understanding Headphone Measurements (video)

Most pros advise against mixing or mastering on headphones and you should probably check your mix on everything else you can get your hands on... Your home stereo, your car stereo, etc. But if you are going to do it, here is something I saved from Recording Magazine:

Can I mix on headphones?

No. But in all seriousness, headphones can be a secret weapon and it really doesn’t matter what they sound like…

Over time, after constantly listening back to my work from different studios on those headphones I really started to learn them. They became sort of a compass. Wherever I went… It became a pattern for me to reference these headphones to see if what I was hearing was “right”…

I learned them, I knew them, I trusted them. It didn’t matter whether or not I loved them…

So, can you mix on headphones? Probably. I just think you really need to put some time into learning them first…

 

[Aryzon]

HD650 has very good tonal balance out of the box but it is a terrible headphone in every other way. It can't do bass (roll off and distortion shoots through the roof). Second, it can't present sense of space. It has a tiny 38mm driver that is also damped to all heavens. Everything will always sound closed in and in your face.

NDH30 is better on the technical side and it's FR is close enough to harman. So between those 2, I would go with NDH30.

I however recommend getting Hifiman Edition XV instead. That headphone has no weaknesses other than it's weight. You just need to add a bass shelf and you are golden.

 

[Mr. Swordfish]

Mixing to headphones is generally frowned upon. I've ignored this dictum with good results. YMMV.

I'm long retired from music mixing, but back in the 90s I did a lot of live recording for NPR and affiliates and I found that mixing to headphones while in close proximity to the PA gave me good results. The "powers that be" at NPR disfavored mixing to headphones so much that they removed the headphone jacks from the control rooms to prevent engineers from using them. But hundreds of miles away from DC, using my own gear, I didn't have to abide by their rules, so headphones were my choice.

Bottom line is that I could hear phase anomalies with the headphones much better than with speakers in a "control room" that was usually a construction trailer, my Ford van, a rented RV, or a back room somewhere with whatever acoustic treatment I could bring along and install in the few hours I had to set up everything. Which is to say that in a "control room" with "challenging" acoustics, monitors were simply less trustworthy than the cans. And over the years, the more I did this the more I realized that minimizing phase anomalies so that each instrument was (mostly) picked up with one, and only one, mic made for the clearest sounding, most "focused" result. Headphones eliminated the early reflections in the "control room" and provided a more easily evaluated determination of the phase problems.

For EQ and imaging, not so much. And there was usually so much low end coming from the stage that the bass had to be mixed by looking at the meters instead of by ear. Flying by instruments as it were.

Sounds like you are in a similar situation where you don't have a nice control room with accurate monitors, so headphones might provide you with the consistency you need. Which particular model is probably less important than getting familiar with whatever model you choose. A lot has changed since the live-to-2-track environment I lived in; in particular, you have the option to re mix and re EQ everything based on monitoring in different places in different conditions instead of the one-and-done mixes that I used to do. A pair of quality headphones that you've become well acquainted with can be a useful piece of the monitoring puzzle.

I've never listened to Neuman headphones, but have used their mics a lot, and it's most definitely a quality brand. As for Sennheiser, my headphones of choice back then were their HD250s, long since discontinued. I now have a pair of HD380 pro, but don't use them much since I don't have much use for headphone listening anymore. The HD650s you're eyeing wouldn't have worked for me since they are open back and only closed back headphone would be useful in the "battle conditions" I encountered. That said, the HD series is pretty solid and I don't know that you need closed back cans.

 

[Jiraya369]

if you cant get a pair of speakers, then make sure to listen to LOADS of reference tracks and to continue listening on your headphones. In order to get clinically accurate with your headphones you'd need at least a year of listening.

I had the iZotope Tonal Balance Control 2 when it was free, loaded a 4.5db per octave noise and always referenced my mix with that noise. See if you can find something similar. A mix that is in the 4.5db noise range is going to sound like basically perfect in terms of tonal balance, even if you're using 1 dollar V shaped iems you can get decent mixes with a visual reference like this. And even then, you need to have songs that are mixed WELL as musical reference. Not just one but at least a dozen. Even in the same album tracks have different characteristics.

Listen and learn your headphones. Mix. Cross-check on other devices like phone speakers, laptop speakers, car speakers, iems, earbuds, ANYTHING. See where you overdid things and then correct those and then repeat. That's how things are with headphones.

The Kanto ORA and Adam D3V are cheaper than the HD650 (where i live at least) and will let you make nearly perfect mixes all the time assuming you place them appropriately and your room isn't the worst thing ever

 

[Tito]

use planars along with harman curve eq. they are much faster and cleaner.

experts advise from budget range
-jade audio jt7 130
-hifiman sundara130 euros
-

if you want you can get
-ananda nano, they have fatastic speed, but they are much more expensive.
walloping 300 euros i think!


ps i am suprised that neumanns are very bad for mixing

distorted low end, transient non existing, microdetils muddy murky low end, overlapping image, they dont take eq well etc

etc. (according to paul third and Emrah Celik (claims "they are shite") he has few billion streams from his work with sundaras, and you can get them
for 129 euros refurbished now, fantastic price!!! what a time to be alive!



ps yes and adam d3v seem to be great,.. kanto ora, i am waiting for amirn or erin to measure them. they are supposed to be great,



they put 770 pro and 7506 as most overrated mixing headphones. ndh30 third.

 

[LevityProject]

The HD650s are an interesting beast. I love mine. They sound fine out of the box, but with EQ correction they sound positively Wonderful. Combined with something like Waves NX or the slate version, they are a serious mixing tool.

The extra distortion, as mentioned in the review on ASR, isn't necessarily bad as it just means more perceived sub bass instead of an audible crunch.

HD 650 Review

Sennheiser HD650 Review (Headphone)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Sennheiser HD650 open back headphone. I purchase mine back in 2017. It costs US $400 with free shipping as of this writing from Amazon. My sample is near new because I don't use it everyday (due to high noise level, I have to wear closed back...

www.audiosciencereview.com

NDH Review

Neumann NDH20 Review (Headphone)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Neumann NDH20 closed back headphone. It was kindly sent to me by a member and costs US $499. The NDH20 is an attractive and solidly feeling headphone: It weighs slightly above average but per above, it felt fine wearing it: The removable...

www.audiosciencereview.com

For $900+, you can do much better than the NDH headphones. Between the two, I'd pick the HD650s every time.

 

[FTB]

A lot of headphones recommended here don't follow the Harman curve at all.

 

[SuicideSquid]

Whatever headphone you end up choosing, I recommend getting a set of very neutral IEMs to compliment - something like the Salnotes 7Hz Zero 2 or the Truthear Crinacle Reds. You lose some of the "space" that a good set of headphones can provide, but those IEMs are much more accurate tonally than just about any headphone, so it's useful to compare your mixes between them, and they're not expensive (the Salnotes 7Hz Zero 2 is under $30).

Another headphone worth considering is the AKG 371. Very good frequency response, comfortable, the one knock against them is they feel a bit cheap and have a reputation for not being terribly durable. If you're using them at a desktop/mixing station and not taking them on the go, though, they should hold up just fine.

 

[LevityProject]

A lot of headphones recommended here don't follow the Harman curve at all.

unmeasured subjective recommendations? All of the ASR measured ones follow Harman as far a Ive seen

 

[LukaBos]

Take a listen to the Ndh30:

 

[mikeonamobile]

Maybe controversial.. for mixing purposes I don't really think it matters as long as YOU know the headphone well. Jiraya is right that you have to listen to reference tracks through them - I'd also run a 12 band graphic EQ and mess with the sliders to see how the headphone responds. You'll learn a lot that way. 598 are fine. I think it is good to have a pair of open, a pair of closed, and maybe an inexpensive IEM and get very familiar with all of them. I have watched knowledgable engineers get great results quickly on $100 headphones that they know very well.

I recommend a pair of closed b/c when I mixed only on open-backs I would WAY overdo the bass frequencies. In practice, this means I wouldn't cut them enough.

For program material like what you've described, it will be really important to understand the midrange . If you know the midrange on your 598s it would be silly to dismiss that experience. Get a pair of closed headphones to check your bass (and for monitoring while tracking with microphones to prevent bleed) and you'll be fine. I use DT770 for that because I find them comfortable to wear.

Also check out goodhertz' Can Opener as a useful tool for mixing with headphones.

tl; dr - your understanding of your headphones is way more important than the headphones themselves

edit: I recommend a pair of closed IN ADDITION to your 598s, not as a replacement. I think too a pair of closed-back planers might be good if your music has a lot of fast transients that you need to hear. Frequency response is not everything in mixing! Muddy, inarticulate transients make recordings sound amateur and lo-fi. Those 70s Dan records have SUCH crisp, identifiable transients. You must be able to hear them well to set your compressor attack and release times - that's super important.

 

[LevityProject]

Why get to know incorrectly tuned headphones intimately when you could instead get intimately equated with correctly tuned headphones?

The DTs fall apart on any complex mix. They can reveal issues perhaps .. like if a mix is too bright on a pair of Beyerdyanmics, the mix is simply too bright.

 

[mikeonamobile]

Why get to know incorrectly tuned headphones intimately when you could instead get intimately equated with correctly tuned headphones?

The DTs fall apart on any complex mix. They can reveal issues perhaps .. like if a mix is too bright on a pair of Beyerdyanmics, the mix is simply too bright.

really no reason, I didn't intend to recommend the DTs. I like them because they are very comfy and I can wear them for long practice sessions on Pianoteq. They serve double duty as a secondary mixing pair. An old pair of Focal Clear are my main mixing headphones.

I mostly agree with you, but I think correct tuning is only part of the puzzle. You can compensate for inaccurate frequency response if you know what it is. However, you can't work on transients you can't hear so I would suggest some headphone that excels at reproducing those for mixing. I believe LCD-X are popular for this, but I've never heard them. Augment the 598s, don't replace them.

 

[LevityProject]

really no reason, I didn't intend to recommend the DTs. I like them because they are very comfy and I can wear them for long practice sessions on Pianoteq. They serve double duty as a secondary mixing pair. An old pair of Focal Clear are my main mixing headphones.

I mostly agree with you, but I think correct tuning is only part of the puzzle. You can compensate for inaccurate frequency response if you know what it is. However, you can't work on transients you can't hear so I would suggest some headphone that excels at reproducing those for mixing. I believe LCD-X are popular for this, but I've never heard them. Augment the 598s, don't replace them.

Recommended headphones at ASR and other places like Erin's audio corner already have good transient response and exceptional tonality. The HD650 or HD600x for example have excellent transient response and get the midrange spot on, and when tuned are outstanding.

Truth hear zero Red IEMs or the truth hear zero IEMs are stupidly good on all accounts for less than half the cost of a pair of 770s.

I wonder if by transient response you mean a boosted high end above 8khz? The 770s aren't bad for tracking, and are a workhorse. But tonally correct and accurate transients? Unfortunately, no.

If you have an Andriod phone and a spare $20-30, get a pair of 7hz salnotes zero, an apple USBC to audio jack dongle, download wavelet and load up the correction curve for the salnotes. And then listen ... It's the lowest possible point of entry I've found for hifi sound.

I went so far as to create a custom curve at hangout.audio to nail down the high end to be neutral and get the low end perfect. They sound so good I almost can't understand how it's even possible with only one driver. Good design I guess ....

 

[Robin L]

Whatever headphone you end up choosing, I recommend getting a set of very neutral IEMs to compliment - something like the Salnotes 7Hz Zero 2 or the Truthear Crinacle Reds. You lose some of the "space" that a good set of headphones can provide, but those IEMs are much more accurate tonally than just about any headphone, so it's useful to compare your mixes between them, and they're not expensive (the Salnotes 7Hz Zero 2 is under $30).

Those are wonderful. I got mine direct from Linsoul, $25 shipped. Overall, the best top to bottom clarity of any audio headgear I've owned. Remarkable for their lack of distortion, again, compared to anything.

Another headphone worth considering is the AKG 371. Very good frequency response, comfortable, the one knock against them is they feel a bit cheap and have a reputation for not being terribly durable. If you're using them at a desktop/mixing station and not taking them on the go, though, they should hold up just fine.

I've got that, AKG 371 really have terrible build. It's nice finding a pair of headphones capable of going down to the bottom octave, but these ones can fall apart with normal use in a short time. I've owned the Sennheiser 598 headphones, really disliked the sound of that. I've got the Sennheiser HD 650 in the budget form of the Drop 6XX, essentially the same. Like it a lot, it's pretty sturdy and easy to listen to for long periods of time, relatively comfortable. It's true they don't go all the way down in the bass, those Zero 2 IEMs beat anything I've heard in that department. But the comfort of headphones, with the possibility of wearing them for hours while recording/mixing, is a high priority. I think that's one reason why Beyer Dynamic headphones get used at recording sessions despite of their wonky performance, they're practically pillows.

https://www.linsoul.com/products/7hz-salnotes-zero

 

[mikeonamobile]

we got mixed up again, I didn't mean to recommend the DT for anything (other than comfort, they are comfortable). I got them for tracking and practicing keyboard at hours when the acoustic piano would disturb neighbors (which is technically all hours, but some more disturbing than others) and use them as a "does my mix sound like crap" gut check. I have gotten to know them reasonably well so they're a useful tool. To your point, I don't particularly enjoy listening to music on them, but they're good for my use case.

I don't know how to measure what I mean by "transient response", and of course it depends on the quality of the recording. Some headphones convey the attack and rapid decay on drums, staccato on bowed instruments better than others. I don't know if this is due to tuning or a driver's mechanics, or both, or of those concepts are inseparable. If you know what measurement corresponds to this I would love to know and understand. I find my beloved Clears do this well, though I am way more familiar with them than any other, and they got skewered in ASR measurements.

So I don't dispute anything you're saying. I just recommend SOME pair of decent closed headphones for home recordists as a useful tool and a different "view", like how studios have a few different sets of monitors. "Decent" depends on the user and how they use them. Those IEMs sound like a great idea also.

 

[LevityProject]

I've got the Sennheiser HD 650 in the budget form of the Drop 6XX, essentially the same. Like it a lot, it's pretty sturdy and easy to listen to for long periods of time, relatively comfortable. It's true they don't go all the way down in the bass, those Zero 2 IEMs beat anything I've heard in that department. But the comfort of headphones, with the possibility of wearing them for hours while recording/mixing, is a high priority. I think that's one reason why Beyer Dynamic headphones get used at recording sessions despite of their wonky performance, they're practically pillows.

https://www.linsoul.com/products/7hz-salnotes-zero

That true about the comfort of the Beyerdyanmics. They are very comfortable. I could wear my dt990s forever it seemed. But then I got used to them, thought I could trust them, and none of my mixes worked ever and I had to audition on many different playback systems until I figured out mix problems ... Wasn't worth it.

On the HD650s sub bass, have you tried tuning them? The shelf and couple of other tweaks from Amir's review does incredible things.

Sennheiser HD650 Review (Headphone)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Sennheiser HD650 open back headphone. I purchase mine back in 2017. It costs US $400 with free shipping as of this writing from Amazon. My sample is near new because I don't use it everyday (due to high noise level, I have to wear closed back...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[LevityProject]

we got mixed up again, I didn't mean to recommend the DT for anything (other than comfort, they are comfortable). I got them for tracking and practicing keyboard at hours when the acoustic piano would disturb neighbors (which is technically all hours, but some more disturbing than others) and use them as a "does my mix sound like crap" gut check. I have gotten to know them reasonably well so they're a useful tool. To your point, I don't particularly enjoy listening to music on them, but they're good for my use case.

I don't know how to measure what I mean by "transient response", and of course it depends on the quality of the recording. Some headphones convey the attack and rapid decay on drums, staccato on bowed instruments better than others. I don't know if this is due to tuning or a driver's mechanics, or both, or of those concepts are inseparable. If you know what measurement corresponds to this I would love to know and understand. I find my beloved Clears do this well, though I am way more familiar with them than any other, and they got skewered in ASR measurements.

So I don't dispute anything you're saying. I just recommend SOME pair of decent closed headphones for home recordists as a useful tool and a different "view", like how studios have a few different sets of monitors. "Decent" depends on the user and how they use them. Those IEMs sound like a great idea also.

I've had enough experience with the beyerdynamic line that I would not trust it in any capacity. They are too off base. Comfortable? yes. Very.

I sold mine to get a cheaper, more neutral and just as comfortable set of IEMs to use for casual listening. I found the right gel size for my ear, and it was completely worth it.

I know I'm coming off harsh on the beyerdynamics. It's for good reason:

They use marketing to make it seem like they are "studio quality".
They are comfortable.
The construction materials are solid.
But exceptionally poor driver design.
They are not hifi or reference class.
They sound very bad when doing 1-1 comparisons to cheap IEMs that comply with a harman reference curve.

 

[LevityProject]

Those are wonderful. I got mine direct from Linsoul, $25 shipped. Overall, the best top to bottom clarity of any audio headgear I've owned. Remarkable for their lack of distortion, again, compared to anything.

https://www.linsoul.com/products/7hz-salnotes-zero

WIthout tuning, there is a massive audible spike at around 12.5khz. I find they are much clearer with that taken care of through tuning. But I agree, they ARE wonderful for what they are. $25 and you get close to reference quality aside from one or two easily fixable quirks.