Mission 778x, Marantz Pm6007, Yamaha a-s301 or a-s501 and pairing

[hipoagu]

Hello,

I am considering starting a new entry level hifi system and the title are my shortlist of candidates for integrated amplifier.
- Mission 778x, 45w@8ohm 520€
- Marantz pm6007, 45w@8ohm 450€
- Yamaha a-s301/s501 350€/450€ 60w@8ohm/85w@8ohm

I also hace shortlist of posible speakers to pair with:
- q acoustics 3030i (88dB, nominal 6 Ohm, min 4 Ohm) , 300€, 490€ with original stands
- q acoustics 3050i (91dB, nominal 6 Ohm, min 4 Ohm) 550€
- wharfedale denton 85th anniversary (88dB, nominal 4 Ohm, min 3.8 Ohm) 500€ plus cost of stands
- Elac dbr62 (86dB, nominal 6 Ohm, min 4.8 Ohm), 450-500€ plus cost of stands
- Monitor Audio Bronze 100 (87dB, nominal 8 Ohm, min 4.5 Ohm) 500€ plus cost of stands
- Mission QX-2 Mark ii (88dB, nominal 4 Ohm, min 3.6 Ohm) 440€ plus cost of stands

Which combinations do you like more?
What pairs with what?what you think is
a) best sound
b) best sound for the money
I will be using the system with digital audio sources (streaming), and as audio for tv/movies.

you may stop reading here if you wish Below some considerations ans rationale i am applying to the amp discussion.

Thanks a lots for the responses. Appriciate all I am learning reading this forum threads.
--‐---‐------‐----------------
I need at least 2 digital inputs .
one optical for TV, other for streamer (initially wiim mini or even the fire tv 4k max connected to the tv), although TV may also be split from HDMI to coax for the case of yamahas with single optical input.

- mission and marantz may have better DAC, am I right?
- mission has bluetooth and usb input supporting DSD and other loseless formats. Not in my roadway in short term but who knows later...
- yamahas have loudness control which I believe is quite interesting at low volume... does wiim implement loudness?
- mission has not subwoofer output but pre-out.
Is pre-out for subwoofer somewhow worse option if in the future I decide to add a subwoofer than dedicated sub out like marantz and yamaha have? I mean sending full signal spectrum may drain power from speaker out? plus, do volume control of the amp works for the pre-out as it does for a sub out?
-mission has not tone controls...but I may just use wiim eq/peq...
(by the way does this works on the digital domain inside wiim and can be output through toslink or does wiim convert to analogue , apply eq and then back to digital with internal wiim dac?)

 

[Talisman]

Any modern amplifier will drive any modern speaker well, with very few exceptions due to impedances that are quite out of the norm, which doesn't happen with any of your speakers.
Choose based on the power you need, price, aesthetics and functions.
The magical pairing between amplifiers and speakers does not exist if they remain within their working range

 

[hipoagu]

Any modern amplifier will drive any modern speaker well, with very few exceptions due to impedances that are quite out of the norm, which doesn't happen with any of your speakers.
Choose based on the power you need, price, aesthetics and functions.
The magical pairing between amplifiers and speakers does not exist if they remain within their working range

Well... Elac DBR62 i heard and read a lot of comments about "needs beefy amp" due to some min equiv. impedance around 2-3ohm at some low freqs. Some have said "at least 100W@8Ohm" to drive them properly...I got really scared, few budget integrated class AB provide such power.

And about the amp+speaker options what would you go for? Thanks!

 

[JeremyFife]

Hi,
How far from your speakers will you sit, and how loud will you listen?

The DACs will all sound the same (some may measure better, but differences will not be audible)
The Yamahas get a lot of love here... power is handy to have, go for the 501
WiiM products do not have Loudness, but they do have good PEQ. You could add the WiiM Amp to your list too, to have everything in one box with better sub control and HDMI input.

Sub-out / pre-out to a sub cannot "drain" power from your main speakers. None of these Amps (apart from the WiiM Amp) allow you to low-pass your main speakers - removing the low frequencies and making them easier to drive.

The Elac DBR62's are probably the best measuring speakers. Have a look at the Review Index here, and Wharfdale 12.1 or Kef Q350's

Enjoy

 

[Talisman]

I had already written to you in the previous thread, personally if you have the space for bookshelf speakers with supports I wouldn't consider anything other than Towers, for amplification I would take the one you like best and that in Potenza sufficient for your needs Probably among these is the Yamaha as 501

 

[JeremyFife]

Oh - the WiiM PEQ is entirely in the digital domain, no DAC/ADC conversion. Obviously, if you have any analogue sources (turntable?) then that needs ADC but the WiiM Pro + and the WiiM Amp are quite good at that. Sounds like you don't need that though.

 

[Roland68]

Hello,

I am considering starting a new entry level hifi system and the title are my shortlist of candidates for integrated amplifier.
- Mission 778x, 45w@8ohm 520€
- Marantz pm6007, 45w@8ohm 450€
- Yamaha a-s301/s501 350€/450€ 60w@8ohm/85w@8ohm

I also hace shortlist of posible speakers to pair with:
- q acoustics 3030i (88dB, nominal 6 Ohm, min 4 Ohm) , 300€, 490€ with original stands
- q acoustics 3050i (91dB, nominal 6 Ohm, min 4 Ohm) 550€
- wharfedale denton 85th anniversary (88dB, nominal 4 Ohm, min 3.8 Ohm) 500€ plus cost of stands
- Elac dbr62 (86dB, nominal 6 Ohm, min 4.8 Ohm), 450-500€ plus cost of stands
- Monitor Audio Bronze 100 (87dB, nominal 8 Ohm, min 4.5 Ohm) 500€ plus cost of stands
- Mission QX-2 Mark ii (88dB, nominal 4 Ohm, min 3.6 Ohm) 440€ plus cost of stands

Which combinations do you like more?
What pairs with what?what you think is
a) best sound
b) best sound for the money
I will be using the system with digital audio sources (streaming), and as audio for tv/movies.

you may stop reading here if you wish Below some considerations ans rationale i am applying to the amp discussion.

Thanks a lots for the responses. Appriciate all I am learning reading this forum threads.
--‐---‐------‐----------------
I need at least 2 digital inputs .
one optical for TV, other for streamer (initially wiim mini or even the fire tv 4k max connected to the tv), although TV may also be split from HDMI to coax for the case of yamahas with single optical input.

- mission and marantz may have better DAC, am I right?
- mission has bluetooth and usb input supporting DSD and other loseless formats. Not in my roadway in short term but who knows later...
- yamahas have loudness control which I believe is quite interesting at low volume... does wiim implement loudness?
- mission has not subwoofer output but pre-out.
Is pre-out for subwoofer somewhow worse option if in the future I decide to add a subwoofer than dedicated sub out like marantz and yamaha have? I mean sending full signal spectrum may drain power from speaker out? plus, do volume control of the amp works for the pre-out as it does for a sub out?
-mission has not tone controls...but I may just use wiim eq/peq...
(by the way does this works on the digital domain inside wiim and can be output through toslink or does wiim convert to analogue , apply eq and then back to digital with internal wiim dac?)

I would advise you to look within yourself and ask yourself where you want to go.

Two points in advance.
Buy a real amplifier, e.g. a used Yamaha A-S1000 for around €500. Take a look at the inside of all amplifiers in the Google image search and you will see a few differences. In comparison, the Yamaha A-S301/501 are just toys.
Stay away from built-in DACs. You can get DACs for €50-150 (used/new) that are better than all built-in ones.

 

[Talisman]

I would advise you to look within yourself and ask yourself where you want to go.

Two points in advance.
Buy a real amplifier, e.g. a used Yamaha A-S1000 for around €500. Take a look at the inside of all amplifiers in the Google image search and you will see a few differences. In comparison, the Yamaha A-S301/501 are just toys.
Stay away from built-in DACs. You can get DACs for €50-150 (used/new) that are better than all built-in ones.

I could bet a euro against 500 on the fact that you can distinguish between an integrated DAC of a decent amplifier and a Stand Alone Dac, buy a DAC only if you need its functions

 

[ZolaIII]

Why not big active monitors and proper standalone DSP for the price? I guess you are in EU so the price of MiniDSP Flex and UMIK-1 won't be charming but you probably can get Kali LP 8 v2 or JBL 308P Mk II for relatively good price. You can simulate equal loudness contours by self low/high (PEQ) filters. In short that would be best value for money and compact regarding space and you have always later possibly to add sub's.

 

[hipoagu]

Hi,
How far from your speakers will you sit, and how loud will you listen?

The DACs will all sound the same (some may measure better, but differences will not be audible)
The Yamahas get a lot of love here... power is handy to have, go for the 501
WiiM products do not have Loudness, but they do have good PEQ. You could add the WiiM Amp to your list too, to have everything in one box with better sub control and HDMI input.

Sub-out / pre-out to a sub cannot "drain" power from your main speakers. None of these Amps (apart from the WiiM Amp) allow you to low-pass your main speakers - removing the low frequencies and making them easier to drive.

The Elac DBR62's are probably the best measuring speakers. Have a look at the Review Index here, and Wharfdale 12.1 or Kef Q350's

Enjoy

Hello,
Thanks for answer!
Regarding subwoofer output I think you are wrong.
This is stated on PM6007 specs: "The PM6007 supports an optional external subwoofer with a fixed low pass cut off frequency at 150Hz"
and this is stated on Yamahas, cut off 100Hz :

Dedicated Subwoofer outputs have combined L+R and cut off spectrum, so definitely not same as pre-output. I understand that more energy leaves Pre-output if connected than Sub out.

Regards

 

[Roland68]

I could bet a euro against 500 on the fact that you can distinguish between an integrated DAC of a decent amplifier and a Stand Alone Dac, buy a DAC only if you need its functions

But you forget that a Yamaha amplifier equivalent to the A-S1000, with built-in DAC, starts at around €1000 used.
They were now so eager to answer that you can't hear any differences between these DACs that they missed this important point.

 

[Talisman]

But you forget that a Yamaha amplifier equivalent to the A-S1000, with built-in DAC, starts at around €1000 used.
They were now so eager to answer that you can't hear any differences between these DACs that they missed this important point.

My new 200 euro onkyo 9010 has an internal DAC that I can't distinguish from an SMS C200 and a Loxjie D40

 

[Roland68]

My new 200 euro onkyo 9010 has an internal DAC that I can't distinguish from an SMS C200 and a Loxjie D40

I didn't talk about that...
Only you talk about it.

 

[ZolaIII]

I didn't talk about that...
Only you talk about it.

All right then let's talk about it. A-S 700 & R-S 700 have same unbalanced input lines and only different regarding performance and power is little better separation in highs which no one will be able to hear anyway. They are much cheaper second hand and if you are lucky you could even find new A-S 700 for under 500 €. Someone whose selling very little used R-N803 day or two ago hire for 550$ but in US. Which is definitely a option again if he can find it in EU (even as new for around same amount of €). That's actually same as A-S 501 regarding amplifier part. A-S701 & A-S 801 are also in game in that case it's newer analog input which is worse than old one, DAC's and different digital inputs amp section is the same as earlier mentioned A-S/R-S 700 lines. A-S 1200 gives you Vu meters and balanced inputs but that's completely another price category and he ain't experienced to catch it down for 500 € like some like TheBatsEar. Think that covers it regarding Yamahas.

 

[Roland68]

All right then let's talk about it. A-S 700 & R-S 700 have same unbalanced input lines and only different regarding performance and power is little better separation in highs which no one will be able to hear anyway. They are much cheaper second hand and if you are lucky you could even find new A-S 700 for under 500 €. Someone whose selling very little used R-N803 day or two ago hire for 550$ but in US. Which is definitely a option again if he can find it in EU (even as new for around same amount of €). That's actually same as A-S 501 regarding amplifier part. A-S701 & A-S 801 are also in game in that case it's newer analog input which is worse than old one, DAC's and different digital inputs amp section is the same as earlier mentioned A-S/R-S 700 lines. A-S 1200 gives you Vu meters and balanced inputs but that's completely another price category and he ain't experienced to catch it down for 500 € like some like TheBatsEar. Think that covers it regarding Yamahas.

I don't really understand what you're trying to tell me.
I specifically only spoke about the A-S1000, because you can get one used for around €500, usually in excellent condition. Because these devices aren't that old and are very robust, you don't take a big risk like with other devices.
If someone would prefer to spend their money on one of the current smaller new models, that's their decision, but it's a completely different class of device.
That's my personal opinion and recommendation, and everyone is free to have their own.

 

[JeremyFife]

Hello,
Thanks for answer!
Regarding subwoofer output I think you are wrong.
This is stated on PM6007 specs: "The PM6007 supports an optional external subwoofer with a fixed low pass cut off frequency at 150Hz"
and this is stated on Yamahas, cut off 100Hz :

View attachment 371833

Dedicated Subwoofer outputs have combined L+R and cut off spectrum, so definitely not same as pre-output. I understand that more energy leaves Pre-output if connected than Sub out.

Regards

Hello,
Thanks for answer!
Regarding subwoofer output I think you are wrong.
This is stated on PM6007 specs: "The PM6007 supports an optional external subwoofer with a fixed low pass cut off frequency at 150Hz"
and this is stated on Yamahas, cut off 100Hz :

View attachment 371833

Dedicated Subwoofer outputs have combined L+R and cut off spectrum, so definitely not same as pre-output. I understand that more energy leaves Pre-output if connected than Sub out.

Regards

Nearly, although I am frequently wrong ... learning. Think I got the terminology the wrong way around
Those Amps have low-pass filters: they send only low frequencies to the Sub. Often a bit pointless since most active subs have Low-pass filters anyway.

What the Amps lack is high-pass filtering: to prevent those low frequencies being sent to the main speakers. That means your Amps and speakers still try to produce the bass which is inefficient.

 

[hipoagu]

Nearly, although I am frequently wrong ... learning. Think I got the terminology the wrong way around
Those Amps have low-pass filters: they send only low frequencies to the Sub. Often a bit pointless since most active subs have Low-pass filters anyway.

What the Amps lack is high-pass filtering: to prevent those low frequencies being sent to the main speakers. That means your Amps and speakers still try to produce the bass which is inefficient.

Yes. My question still remains:
Whar better for future sub installatio?
A) to have a dedicated sub out already low pass filtered and hence conducting a reduced and preamped version of the signal, which sub can lately further filter with its dedicated low freq filter and finally amplify.
B) use a generic pre-amplified output with full signal and connected to a subwoofer that will cut down and amplify.
In case B I assumed the integrated amplifier will need on one hand amplify the full range signal going to passive speakers and on the hand simultaneously pre-amplify the full range signal that will exit through pre-out towards subwoofer. So I assumed total needed power will be higher in case B) than case A).

 

[ZolaIII]

Yes. My question still remains:
Whar better for future sub installatio?
A) to have a dedicated sub out already low pass filtered and hence conducting a reduced and preamped version of the signal, which sub can lately further filter with its dedicated low freq filter and finally amplify.
B) use a generic pre-amplified output with full signal and connected to a subwoofer that will cut down and amplify.
In case B I assumed the integrated amplifier will need on one hand amplify the full range signal going to passive speakers and on the hand simultaneously pre-amplify the full range signal that will exit through pre-out towards subwoofer. So I assumed total needed power will be higher in case B) than case A).

None of it nor puni cuple limited PEQ filters. You need multichannel capable DSP to do proper crossovers.

 

[AuricGoldfinger]

Have you had a chance to listen to Bowers & Wilkins 600 lineup? If you are set on bookshelf speakers, I might recommend the 607 S3 or 606 S3. They’re a little more than your stated budget and the minimum impedance is a bit demanding, yet they may be contenders for a place in your system.

Of the speakers you’ve listed, I’ve heard the Monitor Audio bookshelf speakers and several of the larger models, and each time I have preferred the 607/606, by far.

I used to be a reviewer of orchestral and classical music for a US-based magazine and Canadian e-publication, so my tastes are bound to differ from your own. With that said, I do like bass. I had used a tone control on a Michi receiver to get a feel of the speaker’s overload behavior. Even the diminutive 607 could be pushed harder than any speaker I’ve heard in that size format. The midwoofer did not audibly distort or introduce perceptible doppler effects on the midrange content.

 

[hipoagu]

None of it nor puni cuple limited PEQ filters. You need multichannel capable DSP to do proper crossovers.

Not sure i understand your answer but i seems to me i asked if it is better of A or B and i think you answered C. I didn't mean what the ideal best subwoofer integration procedure, but just better of sub output (Marantz, Yamahas, Wiim mini have it) and generic pre-out ( Mission has just that, not desicate sub out).
Guys, I appreciate your enthusiasm and interesting discussions on internal vs external DAC and up to what degree tou can distinguish that, second hand discontinued high end amp market etc... ... but the point of the thread is me trying to figure out a good budget stereo audio system as combination of the 3 amps and 6 speakers I described in initial post....best quality, best quality/cost? I would appreciate more answers alligned with the initial intend of the thread.
Thanks to all anyway, you are great
This forum is awesome.