You're probably aware that this is a characteristic of good Class AB amplifiers... An amplifier worthy of this class should exhibit this kind of performance for this test :
-
Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!
Mission 778X Integrated Amplifier & DAC Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
You're probably aware that this is a characteristic of good Class AB amplifiers... An amplifier worthy of this class should exhibit this kind of performance for this test :
Bland_username42069
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2024
- Messages
- 308
- Likes
- 293
I don’t know - it’s not bad for around £500 in UK. It just needs a good tidy up to get the best out of it.
welwynnick
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2023
- Messages
- 1,109
- Likes
- 1,421
I've been trying to figure out how to correlate amplifier measurements with sound quality ever since I graduated in EE a long time ago. Apart from simply having a large envelope with low noise and distortion, my best answer is that ALL signals should be amplified the same, and not just 1V 1W 1% 1dB 1kΩ 1kHz 1µV etc. Therefore I always look for low distortion across a wide range of frequencies, levels and loads. Class D amps can have high SINAD at 5W & 1kHz, but they always degrade above that. The Purifi 1ET6525 is a good example - there's quite a variation between 1kHz and 10 kHz, though the absolute THD levels themselves are low (its also very load tolerant, which also matters IMHO).
Linear amplifiers can be good at this. Before I wrote my last post I did think about making a comparison with Topping amps, but I have happy memories of my Mission Cyrus One from back in the day, and I was feeling sentimental and didn't want to add to the negativity surrounding the review too much.
Having said all that, there are a surprising number of well regarded class AB amplifiers Like Anthem, Denon, Parasound or even Monoprice that really aren't great when you stretch them beyond 1 kHz, either.
ATI AT6002 Multi-Channel Power Amplifier Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com
ATI, Multichannel, Power Amplifiers
hometheaterhifi.com
Fresh From the Bench: Parasound Halo JC 5 Stereo Power Amplifier - The Measurements
Oliver A. Masciarotte was looking for an amplifier that he could respect without emptying his bank account. Richard Schram offered to send the Parasound JC 5, his company’s largest stereo power amplifier for evaluation. Anticipating the fun of enjoying the pleasures of this John Curl design...
Anthem P2 Two-Channel Power Amplifier - HomeTheaterHifi.com
Anthem's statement multi-channel power amplifiers are called the P series. They come in two versions, a five-channel (P5) and a two-channel (P2). My home theater test lab has a 200 watt x 5 amplifier which works great for the majority of applications, but it is driving electrostatic speakers...
hometheaterhifi.com
Parasound 2125 V.2 Amplifier Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Parasound 2125 V.2 power amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $899. The 2125 has an understated look with just a few touches to keep it from looking boring. The only controls in front are for which set of speakers it drives...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X8500H Flagship 13.2 Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a member and costs US $3999. The 8500H is a beast: it is both deep and heavy. Thankfully the transformer is centrally located so as manageable as 51...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Many years ago I bought my first AVR, a Denon, and later Parasound HCA2200, and then an ICEPower amp. They were all disappointing. Class AB amps can be poor, too
I think the good ones are Arcam, Benchmark, Bryston, Linn, McIntosh, Sim Audio and Topping. The Mission 778X reminded me a little of them, with the THD vs level curves for different frequencies sitting close to each-other. I was thinking "that's how I want my music to be amplified". I have to admit though, the levels weren't very low.
I've been trying to quantify and compare what I'm looking for, and I settled on finding the worst case THD+N over the audio envelope running across 100Hz to 10kHz, across 0.5% to 50% rated power, and across 4 to 8 ohms load impedance. Those criteria were the result of much trial and error. I pulled all the data together I could find, and ordered them against worst case SINAD, as distinct from the usual best case SINAD. I also listed the difference between best and worst case.
The table neatly divides into good and bad, with a conspicuous gap in the middle around 80dB worst case SINAD.
My thoughts are that the amps in green generally sound good, and the ones in pink generally don't.
Another distinction is that good amps have roughtly 10dB difference btween best and worst case, and the poor ones are roughly 20dB.
Interesting that there isn't much correlation between class AB and class D, not between price (per channel).
So I've been giving this some thought......
I think the multitone and the 19 & 20 kHz imd test are interesting to see like in https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/buckeye-purifi-1et9040ba-amp-review.68644/I've been trying to figure out how to correlate amplifier measurements with sound quality ever since I graduated in EE a long time ago. Apart from simply having a large envelope with low noise and distortion, my best answer is that ALL signals should be amplified the same, and not just 1V 1W 1% 1dB 1kΩ 1kHz 1µV etc. Therefore I always look for low distortion across a wide range of frequencies, levels and loads. Class D amps can have high SINAD at 5W & 1kHz, but they always degrade above that. The Purifi 1ET6525 is a good example - there's quite a variation between 1kHz and 10 kHz, though the absolute THD levels themselves are low (its also very load tolerant, which also matters IMHO).
View attachment 520973
Linear amplifiers can be good at this. Before I wrote my last post I did think about making a comparison with Topping amps, but I have happy memories of my Mission Cyrus One from back in the day, and I was feeling sentimental and didn't want to add to the negativity surrounding the review too much.
Having said all that, there are a surprising number of well regarded class AB amplifiers Like Anthem, Denon, Parasound or even Monoprice that really aren't great when you stretch them beyond 1 kHz, either.
View attachment 520974
ATI AT6002 Multi-Channel Power Amplifier Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com
ATI, Multichannel, Power AmplifiersFresh From the Bench: Parasound Halo JC 5 Stereo Power Amplifier - The Measurements
Oliver A. Masciarotte was looking for an amplifier that he could respect without emptying his bank account. Richard Schram offered to send the Parasound JC 5, his company’s largest stereo power amplifier for evaluation. Anticipating the fun of enjoying the pleasures of this John Curl design...audioxpress.com
Anthem P2 Two-Channel Power Amplifier - HomeTheaterHifi.com
Anthem's statement multi-channel power amplifiers are called the P series. They come in two versions, a five-channel (P5) and a two-channel (P2). My home theater test lab has a 200 watt x 5 amplifier which works great for the majority of applications, but it is driving electrostatic speakers...Parasound 2125 V.2 Amplifier Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Parasound 2125 V.2 power amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $899. The 2125 has an understated look with just a few touches to keep it from looking boring. The only controls in front are for which set of speakers it drives...Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X8500H Flagship 13.2 Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a member and costs US $3999. The 8500H is a beast: it is both deep and heavy. Thankfully the transformer is centrally located so as manageable as 51...
Many years ago I bought my first AVR, a Denon, and later Parasound HCA2200, and then an ICEPower amp. They were all disappointing. Class AB amps can be poor, too
I think the good ones are Arcam, Benchmark, Bryston, Linn, McIntosh, Sim Audio and Topping. The Mission 778X reminded me a little of them, with the THD vs level curves for different frequencies sitting close to each-other. I was thinking "that's how I want my music to be amplified". I have to admit though, the levels weren't very low.
I've been trying to quantify and compare what I'm looking for, and I settled on finding the worst case THD+N over the audio envelope running across 100Hz to 10kHz, across 0.5% to 50% rated power, and across 4 to 8 ohms load impedance. Those criteria were the result of much trial and error. I pulled all the data together I could find, and ordered them against worst case SINAD, as distinct from the usual best case SINAD. I also listed the difference between best and worst case.
View attachment 520976
The table neatly divides into good and bad, with a conspicuous gap in the middle around 80dB worst case SINAD.
My thoughts are that the amps in green generally sound good, and the ones in pink generally don't.
Another distinction is that good amps have roughtly 10dB difference btween best and worst case, and the poor ones are roughly 20dB.
Interesting that there isn't much correlation between class AB and class D, not between price (per channel).
So I've been giving this some thought......
Audiability of distortion over 10kHz is debatable as the H2 component is then 20kHz and the rest even higher. If the performance is decent those overtones are not likely to upset your equipment in some other way .
Audiability of distortion when it’s masked by music is probably overrated ( it’s easier with a pure tone ).
So I look more on the noise side good sinad also implies a very quiet and noise free product I like that .
But I’m no Amp Designer , marginal performance can be signs of other problems, the very good amps in your list speak of some engineering competence so there’s that .
The best Class D module to date in the 45khz bandwidth test, and at least up to 10kHz, is the Purifi 1ET9040BA. Class D modules tend to improve )))
Attachments
Last edited:
Ajax
Senior Member
I don’t have the need for USB or Airplay as in my case I simply stream in full CD quality from Tidal & Spotify Connect using the WiiM App on my phone as a remote.
I have incorporated an old $200 Velodyne sub that I cross using the WiiM App at 70hz, which takes the pressure off the 100 watt WiiM Amp and also my B&W AM01 outdoor speakers. Together with room fit it cleans up the mid range and female voices sound very natural. All subjective I know but Amir’s review supports what I hear.
I also replaced a friends Sonos Amp with the WiiM Ultra and he uses it as a front end for a pair of Sonos Play 5 active speakers in Stereo, significant improvement in sound quality and he’s a happy Chappy.
I know the name changer is bandied around a lot but with an excellent DAC, EQ and a decent amp the WiiM really is an absolute bargain IMO. Perfect for a second system.
This is just inadequate engineering. There is zero innovation here. There is not even an ounce of effort to bring the performance in line with datasheet baseline -- This is barely 80% of the baseline performance shown in most modern DAC chip datasheets (even the cheap ones). This is how brands fall.
DSJR
Master Contributor
I had a mixed vibe regarding the first Cyrus products, the Cyrus 2 was seemingly related to the original 778 amp. The performance of the '2' as tested by HiFi Choice was excellent for the time, but that time was late 80s and the product, with case tweaks and fancier supply caps, lasted into the early to mid 90s I remember. At it's end, it needed the add-on PSX supply to give a subjective 're-enforcement' to the lower frequencies on the music we played the most.
What does the above para relate to this amp? I'd suggest that this amp may not be quite as good as it's original ancestor (arguably inaudible though). I suspect that had the sinad-race not happened, we'd be regarding this amp quite well.
Can we please consider that for many music lovers, this amp may well be ideal. Enough analogue inputs including a phono stage, digital inputs too and enough output for a smallish (UK/EU) room and with preamp outputs if more is needed for a more traditional power amp needing half to one volt or so for full output.
What does the above para relate to this amp? I'd suggest that this amp may not be quite as good as it's original ancestor (arguably inaudible though). I suspect that had the sinad-race not happened, we'd be regarding this amp quite well.
Can we please consider that for many music lovers, this amp may well be ideal. Enough analogue inputs including a phono stage, digital inputs too and enough output for a smallish (UK/EU) room and with preamp outputs if more is needed for a more traditional power amp needing half to one volt or so for full output.
- Joined
- May 8, 2022
- Messages
- 753
- Likes
- 1,096
I would agree with that, but I would really like to that phono stage measured first.
Bleib
Major Contributor
- Joined
- May 13, 2021
- Messages
- 3,531
- Likes
- 8,623
Obviously it can be enough for many, but I sure miss the days when amps and many other electronics tried to have the solutions for absolutely everyone
I'd for instance want two optical in on the Wiim amp pro as well as USB. One optical could come from the TV, other from the CD-player. USB would be from the PC.
F1308
Major Contributor
- Joined
- May 24, 2020
- Messages
- 1,105
- Likes
- 1,072
So, until the numbers say otherwise, you were genuinely happy with how it sounded. That enjoyment shouldn’t be diminished just because the measurements turned out differently.
I only had the amp in my system for about 16 hours before sending it to Amir, powering my Monitor Audio Silver 50 7Gs. In that short period of time it sounded fine to me. To be honest I'm not sure my soon to be 63 year old ears could hear a difference between the Mission and another amp that measures better.
I have since purchased a new pair of Ascend Sierra LXs and the main issue for me is that I don't feel it has enough power to do them justice. Therefore it will most likely be up for sale soon, as the Silver 50 7Gs are.
I think that's probably right, it has very unexciting performance but is it bad enough to be audible? I'd guess that the low power is probably enough for most people who are attracted to it's small cute look.
in the UK it's much cheaper, and sold through proper dealers, so proper support and warranties make it more attractive. But so is the wiim amp ultra for a similar price, I know which I'd buy.
NgtFlyer
Active Member
- Joined
- May 6, 2020
- Messages
- 237
- Likes
- 367
My only experience with Mission electronics is a CD player my father bought.. He fell for the pitch and sidestepped a Sony CDP-70 to buy a Mission DAD-7000. A Philips CD-104 with a modified output stage, sold for entirely too much. It was heavy, it was slow and it broke down twice in around a four year period of time. I had a JVC XL-V250 and Dad got kind of angry when it sounded better than his Mission!
Fun memories!
Fun memories!
Alice of Old Vincennes
Major Contributor
- Joined
- Apr 5, 2019
- Messages
- 1,703
- Likes
- 1,128
I don’t believe you could tell the difference with any of them.I've been trying to figure out how to correlate amplifier measurements with sound quality ever since I graduated in EE a long time ago. Apart from simply having a large envelope with low noise and distortion, my best answer is that ALL signals should be amplified the same, and not just 1V 1W 1% 1dB 1kΩ 1kHz 1µV etc. Therefore I always look for low distortion across a wide range of frequencies, levels and loads. Class D amps can have high SINAD at 5W & 1kHz, but they always degrade above that. The Purifi 1ET6525 is a good example - there's quite a variation between 1kHz and 10 kHz, though the absolute THD levels themselves are low (its also very load tolerant, which also matters IMHO).
View attachment 520973
Linear amplifiers can be good at this. Before I wrote my last post I did think about making a comparison with Topping amps, but I have happy memories of my Mission Cyrus One from back in the day, and I was feeling sentimental and didn't want to add to the negativity surrounding the review too much.
Having said all that, there are a surprising number of well regarded class AB amplifiers Like Anthem, Denon, Parasound or even Monoprice that really aren't great when you stretch them beyond 1 kHz, either.
View attachment 520974
ATI AT6002 Multi-Channel Power Amplifier Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com
ATI, Multichannel, Power AmplifiersFresh From the Bench: Parasound Halo JC 5 Stereo Power Amplifier - The Measurements
Oliver A. Masciarotte was looking for an amplifier that he could respect without emptying his bank account. Richard Schram offered to send the Parasound JC 5, his company’s largest stereo power amplifier for evaluation. Anticipating the fun of enjoying the pleasures of this John Curl design...Anthem P2 Two-Channel Power Amplifier - HomeTheaterHifi.com
Anthem's statement multi-channel power amplifiers are called the P series. They come in two versions, a five-channel (P5) and a two-channel (P2). My home theater test lab has a 200 watt x 5 amplifier which works great for the majority of applications, but it is driving electrostatic speakers...Parasound 2125 V.2 Amplifier Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Parasound 2125 V.2 power amplifier. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $899. The 2125 has an understated look with just a few touches to keep it from looking boring. The only controls in front are for which set of speakers it drives...Denon AVR-X8500H AVR Review
This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X8500H Flagship 13.2 Audio/Video Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a member and costs US $3999. The 8500H is a beast: it is both deep and heavy. Thankfully the transformer is centrally located so as manageable as 51...
Many years ago I bought my first AVR, a Denon, and later Parasound HCA2200, and then an ICEPower amp. They were all disappointing. Class AB amps can be poor, too
I think the good ones are Arcam, Benchmark, Bryston, Linn, McIntosh, Sim Audio and Topping. The Mission 778X reminded me a little of them, with the THD vs level curves for different frequencies sitting close to each-other. I was thinking "that's how I want my music to be amplified". I have to admit though, the levels weren't very low.
I've been trying to quantify and compare what I'm looking for, and I settled on finding the worst case THD+N over the audio envelope running across 100Hz to 10kHz, across 0.5% to 50% rated power, and across 4 to 8 ohms load impedance. Those criteria were the result of much trial and error. I pulled all the data together I could find, and ordered them against worst case SINAD, as distinct from the usual best case SINAD. I also listed the difference between best and worst case.
View attachment 520976
The table neatly divides into good and bad, with a conspicuous gap in the middle around 80dB worst case SINAD.
My thoughts are that the amps in green generally sound good, and the ones in pink generally don't.
Another distinction is that good amps have roughtly 10dB difference btween best and worst case, and the poor ones are roughly 20dB.
Interesting that there isn't much correlation between class AB and class D, not between price (per channel).
So I've been giving this some thought......
PoorishDecision
Member
average "british" amp design, took an old design tacked on a cheap dac/bluetooth etc and said good enough. they're all painfully average, internally they look like the same parts just shuffled around to fit whatever form factor they're using. i doubt any buyer of this amp would really care about measured performance i know for the money i wouldn't either honestly so not terrible.
Is not quad leak and audiolab made in the same “vertically integrated factory” , have they now also bought mission/cyrys ?
Some part of the product lines seems to me to bee the same thing in different chassis especially the cd transports and DAC preamp product .
Some products still seems to be brand unique ?
Some part of the product lines seems to me to bee the same thing in different chassis especially the cd transports and DAC preamp product .
Some products still seems to be brand unique ?
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll