Minor vs Major Improvements

[_B_]

This hobby is hard. I like that. However, it could be easier if not for:
- not everything counted counts well in relative comparison or valuation of sound quality improvements
- not everything that counts can be counted or valuated in terms of sound quality
- no point of diminishing return identified for relative comparisons of improvement in sound quality

So I intelectually cavitate for periods of time inbetween discoveries. My latest discovery is the sumiko master method. In terms of relative value, this ability to room adjust speakers was a major improvement to my sound quality. Now, what would be a minor improvement in comparison? A new DAC? Addition of Saga+ preamp? IsoAcoustics GAIA footies for speakers?

Current system: Furman SS-6B Pro (EMI and RFI) > Bluesound Node 2i > Schiit Vidar > Elac Uni-Fi UF5. Blue Jeans 10awg speaker cables and interconnect. Tidal served by Roon.
Most Played: Melody Gardot, Live in Europe (MQA)

 

[audiophile]

Sometimes a tiny technical improvement makes a big impact on overall perception of reproduced music. A lot depends on the listener and whether he or she likes to listen while paying full attention and noticing little details in music. For many people those details may seem insignificant, for others - very important. Therefore there is no absolute point of diminishing returns that will suit everybody.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi

Welcome to ASR!

Download REW (free)
Acquire a Unimik microphone ($100)
A pair or better a trio of subwoofers. ( from $750 for all 3 ... to $$$$ )
A DSP unit that can control these to integrate with your mains. I suggest a miniDSP 2 x 4 HD with the advanced plugin. ($220)
Read,ask questions, experiment: It takes time to integrate subs with mains (monthS not weeks). ($ Varies)
Experiment. ($Varies)
Enjoy (Priceless)

 

[Snarfie]

Room correction fysical or software or a combination i use mathaudio but REW will do the job probably too. 70% improvement (especialy if you have a lousy room acoustic) after 40 years a eye opener. All other changes/additions less than 20%.

 

[_B_]

Hi

Welcome to ASR!

Download REW (free)
Acquire a Unimik microphone ($100)
A pair or better a trio of subwoofers. ( from $750 for all 3 ... to $$$$ )
A DSP unit that can control these to integrate with your mains. I suggest a miniDSP 2 x 4 HD with the advanced plugin. ($220)
Read,ask questions, experiment: It takes time to integrate subs with mains (monthS not weeks). ($ Varies)
Experiment. ($Varies)
Enjoy (Priceless)

Thanks FrantzM. Been considering adding a sub. Gave little thought until now about more than one sub.

 

[_B_]

Room correction fysical or software or a combination i use mathaudio but REW will do the job probably too. 70% improvement (especialy if you have a lousy room acoustic) after 40 years a eye opener. All other changes/additions less than 20%.

Thanks, if software based room correction is at least as good as physical, I'm in for a treat! Can't wait for the piggy bank to fill up.

 

[digitalfrost]

Have to agree with the others here, room correction was the single biggest improvement for me. And it doesn't even have to be expensive. If you use a PC as source, you can do convolution or EQ for free. All you need to buy is a calibrated measurement mic, a mic stand, and maybe an audiointerface. Can easily be had for less than 200 bucks.

More importantly, DRC gives you a new baseline for how good things can actually be. It changed the way I audition new speakers or headphones, because I have a reference at home, that truly is a reference. It doesn't break the circle of confusion, but it's a step in the right direction.


http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2009/10/audios-circle-of-confusion.html

 

[JeffS7444]

Quick off-the-cuff impression is that your system is probably okay, the footers are dubious, and the Schitt Saga+ raises a red flag: Are you looking at a tubed unit in hopes of smoother sound or tube-rolling your way to sonic perfection? If so, that's a mistake. Chances are, the in-room frequency response of your system could use some help, and the way to address that is to start by picking up a measurement mic and downloading the appropriate software.

 

[raistlin65]

Now, what would be a minor improvement in comparison? A new DAC? Addition of Saga+ preamp? IsoAcoustics GAIA footies for speakers?

How how about a significant improvement? A well-integrated high quality subwoofer.

 

[_B_]

I agree, subwoofer integration and room correction seems to be the ticket. Need to fill out low end frequency response with sub, and clean up frequency response with REW. Those both seem like major improvements. Been eyeballing ELAC's subwoofer range with AutoEQ room correct software. Already have LFE from Node 2i. Anybody have experience with Elac's subwoofers and their AutoEQ?

 

[_B_]

Quick off-the-cuff impression is that your system is probably okay, the footers are dubious, and the Schitt Saga+ raises a red flag: Are you looking at a tubed unit in hopes of smoother sound or tube-rolling your way to sonic perfection? If so, that's a mistake. Chances are, the in-room frequency response of your system could use some help, and the way to address that is to start by picking up a measurement mic and downloading the appropriate software.

Schiit saga+ is being considered as a better way to match amp sensitivity, gain etc. I couldn't even pretend to understand how these are related yet. More research to do.

 

[raistlin65]

I agree, subwoofer integration and room correction seems to be the ticket. Need to fill out low end frequency response with sub, and clean up frequency response with REW. Those both seem like major improvements. Been eyeballing ELAC's subwoofer range with AutoEQ room correct software. Already have LFE from Node 2i. Anybody have experience with Elac's subwoofers and their AutoEQ?

Look into BK Electronics subwoofers. Add EQ by using a MiniDSP and UMIK-1.

 

[JeffS7444]

Schiit saga+ is being considered as a better way to match amp sensitivity, gain etc. I couldn't even pretend to understand how these are related yet. More research to do.

I don't think too much about that: If most of my listening occurs with volume control between say 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock (or the equivalent thereof) I call it good.

If anything, I'd be more interested in Saga S which costs $100 less than Saga+ and offers lower output impedance: 75 versus 180 ohms. In the context of high quality sound reproduction, the only real reason to choose a tubed unit is because you like the look of tubes or enjoy vintage gear.

 

[_B_]

I don't think too much about that: If most of my listening occurs with volume control between say 10 o'clock and 2 o'clock (or the equivalent thereof) I call it good.

I like it when a rule of thumb can get you far enough! Since I'm using a DSP for volume, I can't really tell by rule of thumb. Bluesound doesn't advertise voltage, otherwise you're right about output impedance matching, solid state is better.........

 

[_B_]

Look into BK Electronics subwoofers. Add EQ by using a MiniDSP and UMIK-1.

Thanks, checking it out now!

 

[Hipper]

After getting a decent system (once you have the source to amp sorted the only real variable are the speakers) the most important consideration is the room you use the system in.

Size, shape, ambient noise, positioning of speakers and listening chair, room treatment, DSP/EQ, subwoofers. And you being comfortable and not distracted when listening.

Once you've done your best in this area, you can consider the much smaller improvements that might be had from upgrading power supply set up and anti-vibration devices. In my experience (I have no measurements) these can give subtle improvements (less smeared transients) which are difficult to get elsewhere. Quite frankly though, it is probably likely that money invested in these would be better spent on improved speakers.

 

[majingotan]

Schiit saga+ is being considered as a better way to match amp sensitivity, gain etc. I couldn't even pretend to understand how these are related yet. More research to do.

No. Saga in tube mode attenuates bass frequency response as you attenuate the signal lower than 50%. See here: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...easurements-of-schiit-saga-tube-pre-amp.6520/

Best implementation is digital volume control where this phenomenon never happens.

 

[Snarfie]

Thanks, if software based room correction is at least as good as physical, I'm in for a treat! Can't wait for the piggy bank to fill up.

I use Mathaudio room eq incombination with foobar2000 it is Both for free only thing you need is a quality measuring mic. I use the software with selfmade absorption pannels that taken care for first reflections the combi works for me considering my lousy acoustics more than excelent. Atleast 70% improvement. Bonus is i don't need subs anymore. I would suggest try first the roomcorrection an deside afterwards if you need subs.

 

[_B_]

I use Mathaudio room eq incombination with foobar2000 it is Both for free only thing you need is a quality measuring mic.

Is this approach exclusive to Mathaudio?

The frequency response of your room is very different in every point of the room. "Good" equalization in one point can worsen the sound in the neighboring point. Single-point equalization is not reliable and cannot be used in a professional room correction system. On the other hand, the multipoint equalization is not simple: both the volume and the phase of the testing signal are very different in different points of the room. Simple averaging is not applicable. MathAudio Room EQ applies a state-of-the-art multipoint correction algorithm which ensures the best possible improvement in every point of the listening area. (https://mathaudio.com/why-room-eq.htm )

 

[_B_]

Biggest improvements for me were surround sound and two subwoofers. Unless you have a true need for one in a very unusual situation a standalone DAC is probably a total waste of money in terms of audible benefits, IMHO. After having tried it I'm not too high on sound correction software. I'd say just concentrate on setting up what you have right, not compensating for problems with room correction software. Room correction software is a snake pit unless you're a total expert, IMHO. I just disabled it all and then I could relax with my (humble) system more. You can always use the bass and treble knobs (or other broad EQ) to adjust tonal balance without throwing everything else out of whack. Move your subwoofers around till they sound nice, put crossover at 80 hz, use it all the way it's made to be used. YMMV, IMHO, IME, I'm not an expert, etc.

I'll be buying new speakers as soon as @amirm tests a product that is clearly better than what I have for a price within my budget.

Thanks Steven, one of my concerns is that I will absolutely foul things up with manual room correction. That is why I like the idea of Elac AutoEQ and Dirac in the box. I have my eye on NAD C658. My theory "Dirac smarter than I am".