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Minimum Phase vs Linear Phase

Veri

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A few years back I was using a DIY WM8741 based DAC with an Arduino based controller.

The DAC had 5 (IIRC) different digital filters and I was never 100% sure my code was properly changing the filter as I could never hear the difference.

I think I was doing the right thing as all the other programming of the DAC worked fine. Now with my bought DAC I don't worry at all that there's no way to select filters!
That probably means all 5 filters were 'proper' without severe roll-off or aliasing ;) as I'd expect from Wolfson's flagship DAC (from before cirrus logic acquisition iirc).
 

maty

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It is assumed, erroneously, that all OS and software players sound just as well, that they are well implemented. As it turns out not, the same thing happens with the hard, as Amirm has verified too many times already.

Better not take anything for granted. And, of course, do not count on me for a test that uses only foobar2000.

About the kind of music, PMA says:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...mance-of-my-denon-pma-2500ne.7850/post-189374

-> https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/339369-hear-uncompressed-sample-test-post5830508.html

It makes a big difference what kind of music is used for the test. In another thread I showed an effect of cross-over like distortion to narrow band noise (1000 - 1300 Hz). Though the distortion used seems quite low on the usual 1kHz high level sine, it is quite devastating for the low level signals.

index.php


and the distortion used is shown in the plot attached. If this distortion is applied to a rock music (I tried well recorded Godwhacker by Steely Dan in 96/24), it is almost impossible to tell that the distortion was added.

If I added the same distortion to Beethoven's No. 9 symphony Movement No. 1, the distortion is immediately audible in the low level passage just after the beginning.

So the test files should be chosen very carefully and they should contain high dynamic range and both loud and silent passages, the music that is always close to full scale level is not good for testing.
 

March Audio

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It is assumed, erroneously, that all OS and software players sound just as well, that they are well implemented. As it turns out not, the same thing happens with the hard, as Amirm has verified too many times already.

Better not take anything for granted. And, of course, do not count on me for a test that uses only foobar2000.

About the kind of music, PMA says:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...mance-of-my-denon-pma-2500ne.7850/post-189374

-> https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/339369-hear-uncompressed-sample-test-post5830508.html
No its not just assumed.

It's actually you that are the one making assumptions and drawing conclusions without reliable evidence.

Amir actually tests hardware, gathers data and evidence drawing conclusions from this information. You claiming you hear something is not this.

So, provide your supporting evidence for your above claim, but only if you show it has some relevance to the thread topic.
 
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Julf

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For the rest, I have no confidence in the tests performed from the Internet. Blind tests must be in the same room and with a good stereo that does not have bottlenecks that prevent appreciating differences.

What bottlenecks would that be?

If the source is a computer, it must be optimized to play multimedia.

Oooh! Tell us more! Optimized in what way?
 

LTig

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It is assumed, erroneously, that all OS and software players sound just as well, that they are well implemented. As it turns out not, the same thing happens with the hard, as Amirm has verified too many times already.

Better not take anything for granted. And, of course, do not count on me for a test that uses only foobar2000.
I installed foobar2000 on my notebook after I got the RME ADI-2 PRO fs because it is one of the few players which does not change the bits of the audio files it plays. Verified with the special test signals supplied by RME and detected as unchanged by the DAC when played by foobar2000.
 

LTig

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[Blind tests]
And, of course, without using foobar2000 as a software player, with or without the ABX plugin. If the source is a computer, it must be optimized to play multimedia.

- End off topic -
My notebook (an off the shelf business model - DELL Latitude E7250) and foobar2000 are able to play bit perfect to the RME ADI-2 PRO fs. What else do you think is required to optimize it for high fidelity?
 

maty

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What bottlenecks would that be?

Oooh! Tell us more! Optimized in what way?

Usually, dirty power. Very common problem at audio fairs, hotels and others.

On the second, I do not feel like writing a long article with many images explaining the process, part automated and another not, in Windows. In Linux I have been unable to obtain that sound improvement, yes, with a better sound than since foobar2000. More than fifteen years ago I was doing it on how to secure computer systems. When I did it in the open Internet, with the massification of the Internet, people did not struggle to inform themselves minimally before asking me for help, so I got fed up. Well, from Spanish Internet user , but I think it is a widespread evil regardless of nationality or education system (Spanish has degenerated a lot, University included).

Before I thought that I have to do a new test with foobar2000, since a few weeks ago I installed, again, the JRMC WDM driver. Maybe now it sounds much better.

https://wiki.jriver.com/index.php/WDM_Driver
 

maty

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Well, the test that I failed loudly (50 48 vs 2, I was one of the two) was with foobar2000 and ASIO4ALL v2.3.

http://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...w-and-measurements-of-schiit-modi-3-dac.4742/

Edited the comment by me:

[ Conclusions

The S/PDIF performance of Schiit Modi 3 Uber put a smile on my face and easily garners my recommendation for that use. The DAC is a bargain at that price with that level of performance. USB input unfortunately falls behind in my testing, likely due to sensitivity to input noise. Since Schiit doesn’t show that problem in their testing, your specific host and DAC configuration may perform better.

EDIT: Using WASAPI instead of ASIO4ALL wrapper (which my analyzer requires) resolved the issue with USB. As such, I am recommending the Schiit Modi 3 without reservations. ]

Well, the Kernel Streaming to foobar2000 is from 2006, too old. I listen JRMC 64 bits with KS.
 
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restorer-john

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When I have played with DACs that have adjustable filters the only ones I thought had any noticeable effect were those that rolled off early into the audible band.

Totally agree. Essentially, the faulty ones you can hear (maybe) and the other faulty ones (the slow filters) just create problems of their own.
 

Julf

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Usually, dirty power. Very common problem at audio fairs, hotels and others.

Computers have well-regulated switchmode power supplies.
 

sajunky

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That probably means all 5 filters were 'proper' without severe roll-off or aliasing ;) as I'd expect from Wolfson's flagship DAC (from before cirrus logic acquisition iirc).
Well, If we agree with this (I do), it constitute an ending comment on this subject.

A question raised in OP still remain, but as subject is wrong, I am going to start a new thread.
 

pwjazz

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Being focused on music production (mixing in particular), this is only partially relevant, but it's an interesting look at what's going on with minimum phase and linear phase filtering in practice.

 

maty

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Today:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/foobar2000-modular-freeware-audioplayer-for-windows-developed-by-peter-pawłowski.6452/reply&quote=220944

by MC_RME

Sorry to disturb your party, but as long as the WASAPI mode is not fixed (Event, the default, only works at 44.1 kHz with Windows' own UAC2 driver. Push works in all sample rates) I can't recommend it (as you might imagine our support stuff hates it because of this issue).

I personally abandoned it years ago as the ASIO plug-in (some really crazy ASIO server stuff AFAIR) turned out to be incompatible and ruining ASIO system-wide on my test machine. Don't know if that has changed.

That said, it is better not to assume that the software does not influence the audio. In the end, it is the same as with the hard, its correct implementation or programming is the determining factor.
 

Veri

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maty

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Or working but bad, like the ASIO4ALL v2.3 in the test.

BTW, many say they do not appreciate differences between FLAC 16/44 and 24/96, perhaps in many cases the reason is the use of WASAPI Event.

Many years ago I detected improvement with KS, first in foobar2000. I even wrote an English annotation -with Spanish comments- about it.

https://www.google.com/search?q=nauscopio+foobar2000+kernel+streaming

foobar2000: ASIO, Kernel Streaming, Equalizer, Dolby Headphone, Channel Mixer, SACD, Visualisations…

-> https://nauscopio.wordpress.com/201...-headphone-channel-mixer-sacd-visualisations/ April 2012
 

daftcombo

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And, of course, without using foobar2000 as a software player, with or without the ABX plugin. If the source is a computer, it must be optimized to play multimedia.
What's wrong with Foobar with Kernel Streaming out?
 
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