miniDSP vs active analog crossover

[rjp]

I am attempting to better integrate my subwoofer in my 2.1 system.
I have been running my main stand mount speakers (Dynaudio Special 40) full range, and relying on the digital LPF and DSP room correction built into my sub.

I'd like to see how it sounds if I add some high pass filtering to the mains, especially since I am occasionally over extending their little 6.5" woofers at high volume.

I see so many people are using the miniDSP 2x4hd for bass management, and it seems great for that, but I am concerned about using it for more than just the bass. If I use it for the high pass of the mains this means I would be introducing and additional A/D and D/A stage to the system, and I would prefer not to do this. I hear that the miniDSP 2x4hd adds a little noise in this regard.

I love the idea of being able to measure the room and build PEQ filters using REW and all that. Sounds like something I would very much enjoy playing with, but I just don't want to be limited by the 2x4hd A/D/A chain. If I could do all the filtering digitally using the miniDSP flex that would be great, but my streaming device (Cambridge Audio CXN v2) does not allow an option for a digital processing loop unfortunately, so I would need another DAC. I like the DAC in the CNX v2 and prefer to stick with it.

I started looking at active crossovers like the dbx 223xs. This seems like an excellent choice for integrating the sub and mains, and I can still use the sub's built-in DSP...
I also like the fact that I can just turn a knob and instantly adjust the crossover frequency.

dbx 223xs Crossover Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the dbx 223xs active analog balanced crossover. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $245. I must say this is a nice and sturdy package for such a bargain price. Controls feel nice as well. Functionality though is confusing given the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Would this be a better (higher fidelity/quieter) option than the miniDSP?

Any other options I should look into?

Thanks.

 

[ppataki]

Any other options I should look into?

You could use a PC as the source and have a fully digital DSP there, for example Jriver
IMHO that is the absolute best way, quality-wise
Many of us here on this forum actually do that

 

[rjp]

That is an interesting idea. But how would integrate this with my Cambridge Audio CNX v2? It has a digital out and a digital in, but apparently it cannot be used at an effects loop for the DSP. To my understanding, if I use the streamer portion I feed the digital out to the DSP PC, but then the CNX v2 disables its DAC and I cannot feed the PC digital back into it. So I would need to buy another DAC. Really a dumb and limiting design in my opinion. Too bad.

 

[ppataki]

That is an interesting idea. But how would integrate this with my Cambridge Audio CNX v2? It has a digital out and a digital in, but apparently it cannot be used at an effects loop for the DSP. To my understanding, if I use the streamer portion I feed the digital out to the DSP PC, but then the CNX v2 disables its DAC and I cannot feed the PC digital back into it. So I would need to buy another DAC. Really a dumb and limiting design in my opinion. Too bad.

Your use-case is integrating a subwoofer
For that you need a multichannel DAC connected to the PC
That way, you will have 3 discrete channels to manage (volume, delay, crossover, everything) digitally, on the PC

This is a good example:
'DIY 2.2 living room project' https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/diy-2-2-living-room-project.57939/

 

[voodooless]

Just get one of the WiiM streamers. They offer all you need in one box.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

But how would integrate this with my Cambridge Audio CNX v2?

Unfortunately, you can only use it as a digital source of bits. Any processing needs to be downstream. This is a limitation of earlier generations of streamers which lack DSP. I still use a previous generation of Cambridge streamer but feed it but perfect into an RME ADC/DAC for DSP processing.

Your choices are: 1) keep your Cambridge and use a downstream DAC with DSP; 2) replace the Cambridge streamer with a Wiim or equivalent that streams AND does DSP (alternatively a PC doing the streaming and software DSP tools).

 

[john61ct]

Your Cambridge streamer has no speaker crossover function, but does not need a loop.

Put a miniDSP 2x4hd for crossover / bass management / HPF of mains downstream

as well as some light PEQ DSP will not cause audible problems, even with an extra ADC/DAC conversion.

However you can go S/PDIF from your Cambridge streamer!

The dbx is better than Behringer level, but not as good SQ as the miniDSP.

 

[rjp]

Unfortunately, you can only use it as a digital source of bits. Any processing needs to be downstream. This is a limitation of earlier generations of streamers which lack DSP. I still use a previous generation of Cambridge streamer but feed it but perfect into an RME ADC/DAC for DSP processing.

Your choices are: 1) keep your Cambridge and use a downstream DAC with DSP; 2) replace the Cambridge streamer with a Wiim or equivalent that streams AND does DSP (alternatively a PC doing the streaming and software DSP tools).

I didn't realize the Wiim had DSP. I'll look into it. May have to say bye to the Cambridge

 

[rjp]

Which WiiM product has the streamer + DSP + DAC?
The Ultra is just 329. Is the quality really on par with the Cambridge Audio CNX v2? Seems rather inexpensive.

EDIT: After some reading it seems listeners are tending to like the cnx v2 sound better than the WiiM ultra.

​

 

[markstein]

A very nice solution for your use case may be a WiiM mini, with digital Toslink connection into a MiniDSP Flex (4 channel output incl. DSP). The Flex is available with various output configs (RCA unbalanced, TRS balanced, digital) - choose the one most suitable for your setup.

 

[rjp]

Does the Flex include a DAC?

EDIT: Looks like there is an option to have either digital or analog outputs but not both. So optional DAC?

 

[markstein]

The Flex with analog RCA and balanced output option feature a DAC of course. The digital output option has no DAC.

The Flex was tested very good here at ASR:

Minidsp Flex Review (Audio DSP)

This is a review and detailed measurement of the Minidsp Flex audio signal processor. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $475 for unbalanced and $550 for balanced that I tested. Flex borrows the interface from SHD and puts it in a compact package. Seeing how I really liked that...

www.audiosciencereview.com

(Correction of my previous post: balanced outputs are TRS, not XLR)

 

[markstein]

The next step would be to get a second sub. Two subs strategically placed will provide more even bass across the room than just one sub. A MiniDSP Flex with 4 channels could support that.

The ideal solution would be 3-4 independent subs. In this case, the MiniDSP Flex 8 would give you a sufficient number of output channels (all RCA unbalanced).

 

[rjp]

The Flex with analog RCA and balanced output option feature a DAC of course. The digital output option has no DAC.

The Flex was tested very good here at ASR:

Minidsp Flex Review (Audio DSP)

This is a review and detailed measurement of the Minidsp Flex audio signal processor. It was sent to me by the company and costs US $475 for unbalanced and $550 for balanced that I tested. Flex borrows the interface from SHD and puts it in a compact package. Seeing how I really liked that...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Well it sure has amazing SINAD! I wonder how it sounds compared to the cnx v2. I will try to find some reviews.

In any event, it looks like an excellent device. As for the streaming source, I suppose I could continue to use my cnx or get the WiiM mini. Is the only advantage of the WiiM the small footprint at this point?

 

[markstein]

Well it sure has amazing SINAD! I wonder how it sounds compared to the cnx v2. I will try to find some reviews.

In any event, it looks like an excellent device. As for the streaming source, I suppose I could continue to use my cnx or get the WiiM mini. Is the only advantage of the WiiM the small footprint at this point?

The WiiM mini offers certainly best possible sound quality when connected digitally via Toslink at a very low price. I use two of these, and the only negative thing I could say is that I do not really like their app (their implementation of Tidal). When using Tidal connect (bypassing the WiiM app), volume normalization does not work, so using the WiiM app is a must for me.

If I were you I would keep the beautiful Cambridge as a streamer, get a MiniDSP Flex as digital x-over/DSP/volume controller, and connect both digitally. Then also get a MiniDSP Umik2, as without acoustic measurements, subwoofer integration will not work. You can do all measurements using REW software which is available for free.

 

[staticV3]

Which WiiM product has the streamer + DSP + DAC?

Every WiiM product has the streamer + DSP + DAC.

Is the quality really on par with the Cambridge Audio CNX v2? Seems rather inexpensive.

Yes. Price and Quality are rarely correlated in HiFi, but a high MSRP sure is an effective way to make customers perceive a better sound through confirmation bias.

Case in point:

it seems listeners are tending to like the cnx v2 sound better than the WiiM ultra.

The actual sound is not what formed these impressions.
E.g. in a blind test, no one would be able to tell them apart.

 

[SHB]

With a 2.1 system, you’ll want to place your sub centered between the mains so you can crossover the sub as high as possible. If you have it off to one side you’re limiting your options.

With speakers that have 6” woofers, you’re going to want your crossover to the sub to be 150-200Hz. This will eliminate the speaker trying to reproduce the lowest octave it can cover (the area where they generate the most distortion). It will also increase your system’s dynamic range by around 6dB.

Also, if you can, use a 24dB/octave slope on the high pass filter. You want at least that slope on the low pass for the sub.

If you’re buying an analog active crossover, you can try using it as the main crossover and then set the sub’s internal XO set to its maximum value. Basically, ganging the XOs so you have a compound slope that’s much steeper.

This could be really helpful in keeping you sub from being easily localized if you can’t place it in between the mains.

You’ll have to dick around to get it it dialed in, but it’s not that difficult.

Ideally, you can get another sub in the future and run stereo subs. Then you can set the sub’s XO to the top of its range and add another 3-6dB of dynamic range.

 

[terryforsythe]

Then also get a MiniDSP Umik2,

I have both a Umik1 and a Umik2. They both work great for subwoofer integration and room correction using REW. The OP probably is better off saving money and going with the Umik1. Regardless of which microphone is used, its calibration file should be used in REW.

 

[terryforsythe]

With speakers that have 6” woofers, you’re going to want your crossover to the sub to be 150-200Hz. This will eliminate the speaker trying to reproduce the lowest octave it can cover (the area where they generate the most distortion). It will also increase your system’s dynamic range by around 6dB.

Every speaker model and room is different. My Elac's have 6.5" woofers and in stock form the woofers work fine crossing over at 100Hz with acceptable levels of distortion. I have modified the cabinets, adding additional bracing, blocking off the ports, etc. Now, they work down to 80Hz with low distortion at reasonable SPL.

On the other hand, my friend had an old pair of Klipsch speakers. He had a large dip in frequency response around 150Hz due to his room modes. He added a SVS subwoofer, and we settled on placing it between the speakers - we experimented with many locations, but that location worked best for his speakers and room. We tuned it not only to extend the bass response, but also to help fill in the 150Hz dip. It did improve the sound, but it wasn't perfect.

 

[melomane13]

Lyrion Streamer on rpi , with camilladsp and sound interface with 4 , 6, 8 or more outputs , for crossover and room correction. Best than wiim, but diy