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miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

EWL5 said:
I think removing the LPF may cause the PAC devices some issues as it will re-introduce the Linkwitz-Riley vs Butterworth crossover slope mismatch.

Anyone know what I'm talking about?
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Measurements will be important... no way to know how ART manages crossover do they do BW, LR, FIR, or something proprietary. LPF defeat may or may not solve the issue
 
Comma said:
This is what is being requested.

View attachment 536263
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I am also a bit confused about the terminology, but it seems impossible to know the exact number of filter taps unless the manufacturer officially discloses it. However, as shown above, the number of ART filters (cross-terms) can be verified during the Dirac Live ART calibration stage. Thank you for uploading this
 
design0312 said:
I am also a bit confused about the terminology, but it seems impossible to know the exact number of filter taps unless the manufacturer officially discloses it. However, as shown above, the number of ART filters (cross-terms) can be verified during the Dirac Live ART calibration stage. Thank you for uploading this
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At least for D&M gear this would be visible only if cross terms are not sufficient for the specific channel count. If remember correctly, won't show for 5.1.4 system but will for higher channel count systems.

We have no explanation to this day why D&M implemented this limitation, but we do have many hundreds of posts questioning such implementation. Probably less than 100 trying to explain what this actually means and how it impacts various systems.

I certainly hope that Tide does not run into same limitations as it is bespoke design and has what is considered a more flexible and powerful processor.
 
design0312 said:
I am also a bit confused about the terminology, but it seems impossible to know the exact number of filter taps unless the manufacturer officially discloses it. However, as shown above, the number of ART filters (cross-terms) can be verified during the Dirac Live ART calibration stage. Thank you for uploading this
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From what I can tell when I’m looking in DLART there’s one filter for each supporting speaker, for each speaker and the main subwoofer. And one filter for that speaker/sub itself. If that make any sense?
Sor my 7.4.4 implementation there’s filters 15 filters for 11 speakers and the main sub. 15x12=180 filters in total.
 
Viking said:
From what I can tell when I’m looking in DLART there’s one filter for each supporting speaker, for each speaker and the main subwoofer. And one filter for that speaker/sub itself. If that make any sense?
Sor my 7.4.4 implementation there’s filters 15 filters for 11 speakers and the main sub. 15x12=180 filters in total.
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It looks great, just as I expected! Thank you for your answer.:D
 
EWL5 said:
I think removing the LPF may cause the PAC devices some issues as it will re-introduce the Linkwitz-Riley vs Butterworth crossover slope mismatch.

Anyone know what I'm talking about?
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No, could you elaborate? What is PAC?

To me, adding another filter (i.e., a 120Hz LPF) in the preamp seems at best redundant and more likely to introduce phase shift than fix anything, assuming the LFE was already low-passed during Dolby encoding.
 
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The rationale here is to replicate the same settings of the system where movies are mastered on. I also asked myself the same question. Do wo need the HPF when most of the time the LFE will be already cut at 120Hz or so during mastering. Dolby has it in their encoder settings per default so it is part of the encoding as you already said. However most of the systems I looked for in a quick research like Neumann or Genelec have the HPF at 120Hz enabled per default in their bass management multichannel systems and it is safe to assume that this is how the director and mixer heard it. Afaik also in the Dolby cinema processors or datasat processors the HPF at 120Hz on the LFE is enabled per default.
 
I think you meant LPF, not HPF. Do you have any sources on the Dolby Cinema processors? I can’t find any that back up what you said.

Instead, I’d like to refer to the following thread and in particular to what @Soundmixer and @audio2920 (both working in the mixing industry) say, e.g. posts #132, #152, #153, #171 (though the entire thread is worth reading).

www.audiosciencereview.com

Why bass management makes my life tedious

@Soundmixer Please let me know when you're done editing your posts :) I probably better wait until tomorrow :) Please let me know when you get the following information. "we need to survey a decent amount of current recordings to make an authoritative statement one way or the other." Until...
www.audiosciencereview.com www.audiosciencereview.com
 
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Yes, LPF. I was browsing several manuals a year ago but so but I dont remember where I found it unfortunately.
 
I couldn’t find any official document supporting an LPF.

Have you seen the thread mentioned above?

But well, in the end, it’s a personal choice whether or not to filter the LFE again.
That’s why I‘d prefer a device that allows both options.
 
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Wow, I’m impressed. Just completed the measurement and Dirac Art filter creation process. Tested first playing back some music from Apple Music through Toslink. The sound stage appears balanced, coherent and seamless. My small setup seems to sound much bigger now and punches above its weight so to say. My setup is the following: fronts Genelec 8320As, sub Elac 2070, center and rear surrounds are Genelec 4010As.

Initially thought I’d need a different Dirac setup for playing back music through 2.1 speaker configuration but miniDSP convinced that the Dirac ART Mimo will work whatever the source material channel count is. I am convinced. Could not be happier with the results.
 
Bt_1234 said:
No, could you elaborate? What is PAC?

To me, adding another filter (i.e., a 120Hz LPF) in the preamp seems at best redundant and more likely to introduce phase shift than fix anything, assuming the LFE was already low-passed during Dolby encoding.
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PAC = Premium Audio Company (a subsidiary of Gentex and formerly of Voxx). They own Onkyo, Integra, and Klipsch. They used to have Jamo, Energy, and the rights to Pioneer Home Audio.

History lesson: back in 2021 when the RZ50 and its clones came out, PAC introduced the masses to Dirac since the base license was included. It was not possible (at the time) to set the crossover in the Dirac environment so the AVR's crossover took effect. Unfortunately, many users experienced what was known as the "SW bug" since the output of the SW was much lower than the rest of the speakers, even after calibration. It was only discovered many years later (after the RZ50 got the firmware update to get DLBM/DLBC) that between Onkyo and Dirac, there was a crossover slope mismatch due to Butterworth vs Linkwitz-Riley filters, respectively.

I'm just curious if issues like the above come back to haunt the multiple Dirac processors out there if the LPF/HPF assignments change.
 
I assume you’re referring to a crossover mismatch between the main speakers and the subwoofer. Ideally, the LPF and HPF should be symmetrical (like a 4th-order LR crossover). Typically, you’ll see a 4th-order LR LPF on the sub and a 2nd-order Butterworth HPF on the mains. The reason is that if the mains exhibit a natural 2nd-order Butterworth roll-off, cascading it with the electrical 2nd-order Butterworth HPF results in an overall 4th-order Linkwitz–Riley HPF response.

That’s bass management.

The LPF on the LFE channel (which is what I was referring to) is different from that.
 
Bt_1234 said:
I assume you’re referring to a crossover mismatch between the main speakers and the subwoofer. Ideally, the LPF and HPF should be symmetrical (like a 4th-order LR crossover). Typically, you’ll see a 4th-order LR LPF on the sub and a 2nd-order Butterworth HPF on the mains. The reason is that if the mains exhibit a natural 2nd-order Butterworth roll-off, cascading it with the electrical 2nd-order Butterworth HPF results in an overall 4th-order Linkwitz–Riley HPF response.

That’s bass management.

The LPF on the LFE channel (which is what I was referring to) is different from that.
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Yeah but the LPF slopes to the HPF, no? If it's such a simple matter, there wouldn't have been so many frustrated PAC owners from 2021-2024!

Let's just say I won't be surprised if the proposed Dirac change to the LPF impacts ART similarly to the 2021 debacle.
 
Hko said:
Did you see this update on the miniDSP forum:

”Pay no attention to the "No action required at this time." message at the bottom - it's a trap! Call FedEx immediately at 1-800-463-3339. Say "Clearance Delay" when the automated system asks what you're calling about, which will cause their system to automatically route you to their international shipping department. One of their reps will send you an e-mail containing a DocuSign link to CBP Form 5106, where you can securely provide your SSN or other tax/importer ID info to US Customs. This e-mail may take ~24 hours to arrive. The only field on the CBP form that isn't self-explanatory is the "Title" field to the left of the signature block at the bottom of the form - the correct input for this field is "Importer". If CBP wants to see your invoice, you can provide it to them by Iattaching it to an e-mail addressed to "[email protected]" with only your tracking number in the subject field - this will auto-route your invoice to the FedEx logistics person handling your case, who will in turn provide it to US Customs. Hope this helps someone.”

I don’t know whether this piece of advice is valid for you but maybe worth investigating.
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Thanks. It appears it is very much worth investigating. I am waiting for the DocuSign link right now.
 
Very long thread, any general updates from regulars who have been following this thread?

Hows the performance now that it's in owners hands?
 
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