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miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

markus said:
Who exactly is "we", and why do you require PEQ on inputs and FIR on outputs? Please specify your output requirements in more detail.
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The poster seems to be looking for a Loudspeaker Management System rather than a AVP.

I’m afraid even in the pro world these are vanishing due to all the electronics and DSP disappearing inside the active cabinets.

The companies that are still doing passive cabinets such as d&b and Nexo tend to also OEM their own amplifiers with the DSP built in.
 
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welwynnick said:
It's difficult to argue with any of that, but I'm going to have a go anyway (again), even if it's only dogmatic philosophy.
I don't think AVP manufacturers should be telling us what we can and can't hear - that should be a higher level decision.

The entire audio replay chain is long, complex and expensive. It includes recording, producing, mastering, publishing, distributing, storing, playback, processing, amplification and speakers. The desire is to get the whole chain as close as possible to being transparent to the original performance, and the whole chain contributes to the end result. There will be a bottleneck in that chain which will constrain the overall performance.

When you take a holistic view about what sets the overall constraint, I believe it is distribution. The recording systems and the playback systems can change and improve over the years, and they continue to do so. What is much more difficult to change, once they're established, are the standards used for distribution - CD, DVD, BD, TV, satellite, streaming etc. That's where the true bottleneck is. If all the media used for distribution had the same digital audio format, that would be fine, but they don't.

Most of those media use 44.1 or 48 kHz sample rates, but there's plenty of material out there and in our collections that uses higher rates. That material is only there because the producers have chosen to distribute it, and because the consumers have chosen to consume it. That's where the decision has been made. And if that material is out there in significant measure, then that's what an AVP should be capable of playing IMHO. I think it's quite reasonable for cost-conscious AVR's to make a compromise and limit processing to 48k, but not over-priced high end processors.

I know I won't win this argument, but I don't care. When I'm rich and successful, I'm going to buy a Trinnov and glory in the processing power of it's $200 CPU.
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It is a curious thing that audio companies are not more keen on catering to hi-resolution market. Perhaps just think that business case would not support the investment?

Also, there is a thing with AVRs/AVPs that you can't create audio delay that would be in multiples of the video delay, as synch would be difficult and amount of video buffering required at 4K would be immense. Once hardware is improved, perhaps AVRs/AVPs will be able to accomodate 96kh processing across the board. But that is not really in the hands of the AVR/AVP manufacturers. It is the chip and DSP manufacturers that would need to do it and at the right price. Apparently, they like it simple and for now consider 48kz sufficiently high processing rate for the mass market.
 
Oddball said:
It is a curious thing that audio companies are not more keen on catering to hi-resolution market. Perhaps just think that business case would not support the investment?

Also, there is a thing with AVRs/AVPs that you can't create audio delay that would be in multiples of the video delay, as synch would be difficult and amount of video buffering required at 4K would be immense. Once hardware is improved, perhaps AVRs/AVPs will be able to accomodate 96kh processing across the board. But that is not really in the hands of the AVR/AVP manufacturers. It is the chip and DSP manufacturers that would need to do it and at the right price. Apparently, they like it simple and for now consider 48kz sufficiently high processing rate for the mass market.
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Audiophiles may be vocal and well-represented on forums but they make up such a small percentage of the world population!
 
The Flex HTx has input PEQ. It is actually useful because I do have a mixer/mic connected to spare inputs since I only use 5 input channels from my pre-pro. I disable subwoofer in my pre-pro and leave the 5 channels full range. My mixer uses 2 of the remaining input channels. My atmos channels I just go direct to amp. It is interesting that they removed that feature unless they just did not add it to the manual. I think they are moving towards everyone just using Dirac ART so they do not want to have the confusion of people stacking input peq/ output peq / and room correction. I would not have a significant need to move to Tide 16 other than it would be nice to control my atmos channels with same DSP as my other channels instead of just my pre-pro.
 
It's sour grapes. They didn't get what they wanted and then need to shit on the product. It's typical Internet av nerd behavior.
 
welwynnick said:
Don't Use the Audio Processor to Process Video
...........
Other things being equal, having to use an extra box is undesirable, but I think it has two advantages:
(1) The AVP no longer has to keep up with advancing HDMI video standards - especially those associated with advances in gaming.
(2) There are performance benefits to keeping digital video noise entirely out of the audio processor.
Therefore if you get a 48 Gbps HDMI switch to handle all the video, the audio processor can be optimised just for audio, and you can keep it for longer.
You chose the processor based on audio functionality / performance / price, so you can get better value than when you're constrained to getting an HDMI 2.1 processor.
Yes, the HD Fury VRROOM (or even 8k Arcana) is fairly expensive, but it's a master of all trades, and there are many good, cheaper, options:
(1) The EZ-SW41H21A-EO is an HDMI 2.1 HDCP 2.3 switch. It accepts 4 x 4k/120Hz VRR / ALLM/ DV inputs, plus eARC from a TV, and sends either HDMI or eARC to an AVP.
(2) The Orei BK-4927 is an HDMI 2.1 HDCP 2.3 switch. It accepts 4 x 4k/120Hz inputs, plus eARC from a TV, and sends audio HDMI to an AVP
(3) The Orei BK-4929 is an HDMI 2.1 HDCP 2.3 switch. It accepts 4 x 4k/120Hz VRR / ALLM/ DV inputs, plus eARC from a TV, and sends eARC to an AVP
Click to expand...

I came over all nerdy and looked at all the HDMI extractor switches I could find that would pass 4k120 video and lossless Atmos audio.
They all had a lot in common - HDMI 2.1, HDCP 2.3, 48Gbps bandwidth, 8k60 and 4k120 video, and most supported VRR, ALLM, DV and HDR10+.
The differences are in whether the audio is output over regular HDMI or by HDMI eARC (or both).
The model numbers have links to the manufacturer's pages. Let me know if you find any others.
I particularly liked the FeinTech and Orei switches with multiple inputs and eARC output.
Since these are all so modestly priced, I think there's an opportunity to make the video switching disposable and updateable, and keep one good audio processor.
EDIT : Updated with Marmitek,

MakeModelCost
GBP		HDMIHDCPInputOutputGbps4k8kVRRALLMQMSDVHDReARC Audio IneARC Audio OutHDMI Audio Out
BlustreamSM11EARC-8K2372.12.3114012060VRRALLM??HDRInOut-
BZBGearBG-8K-42MA4002.12.3424812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-Like Orei 402
BZBGearBG-8K-HS41A1492.12.3414812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-If TV has eARC
EZCOO /EZ-SW41H21A1302.12.341-12060VRRALLM?DVHDR10InOutOut
CORSAHDEZ-SW21H21A1302.12.321-12060VRRALLM?DVHDR10InOutOut
FeinTechAX3411762.12.3424824060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-
FeinTechAX3401352.12.3414824060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-
FeinTechAX310892.12.3114824060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-
FeinTechAX211802.12.3114812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+In-Out
FeinTechSW4111232.12.3414824060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+In-Out
HDFuryVROOM5492.12.3414812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOutOut
HDFuryARCANA3492.12.3114812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOutOut
J-Tech8KAE1182.12.311-12060---DVHDR10InOutOut
MarmitekConnect AE34872.12.3114812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOutOut
OreiBK-49291042.12.3414812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-
OreiBK-4927972.12.3414812060---DVHDR10+In-Out
OreiBK-931742.12.3114812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOutOut
OreiBK-929752.12.3114812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-
OreiBK-927602.12.3114812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+In-Out
OreiBK-401ARC602.12.3414812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-If TV has eARC
OreiBK-402A1122.12.3414012060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-If TV has eARC
 
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Even Trinnov does not have Flex HTx style input PEQ. It has a preset-linked EQ layer before optimization so Trinnov optimizer reinterpret and overrides it anyways. For all the people complaining about miniDSP HDMI implementation...what AVP's out there have true 48gbps HDMI inputs ?
 
welwynnick said:
I came over all nerdy and looked at all the HDMI extractor switches I could find that would pass 4k120 video and lossless Atmos audio.
They all had a lot in common - HDMI 2.1, HDCP 2.3, 48Gbps bandwidth, 8k60 and 4k120 video, and most supported VRR, ALLM, DV and HDR10+.
The differences are in whether the audio is output over regular HDMI or by HDMI eARC (or both).
The model numbers have links to the manufacturer's pages.
Let me know if you find any others.
I particularly liked the modestly priced FeinTech and Orei switches.

MakeModelCost
GBP		HDMIHDCPInputOutputGbps4k8kVRRALLMQMSDVHDReARC Audio IneARC Audio OutHDMI Audio Out
BlustreamSM11EARC-8K2372.12.3114012060VRRALLM??HDRInOut-
BZBGear
BG-8K-42MA		4002.12.3424812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-Like Orei 402
BZBGearBG-8K-HS41A1492.12.3414812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-If TV has eARC
EZCOO /EZ-SW41H21A1302.12.341-12060VRRALLM?DVHDR10InOutOut
CORSAHDEZ-SW21H21A1302.12.321-12060VRRALLM?DVHDR10InOutOut
FeinTechAX3411762.12.3424824060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-
FeinTechAX3401352.12.3414824060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-
FeinTechAX310892.12.3114824060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-
FeinTechAX211802.12.3114812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+In-Out
FeinTechSW4111232.12.3414824060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+In-Out
HDFuryVROOM5492.12.3414812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOutOut
HDFuryARCANA3492.12.3114812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOutOut
J-Tech8KAE1182.12.311-12060---DVHDR10InOutOut
OreiBK-49291042.12.3414812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-
OreiBK-4927972.12.3414812060---DVHDR10+In-Out
OreiBK-931742.12.3114812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOutOut
OreiBK-929752.12.3114812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-
OreiBK-927602.12.3114812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+In-Out
OreiBK-401ARC602.12.3414812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-If TV has eARC
OreiBK-402A1122.12.3424012060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-If TV has eARC
Click to expand...
This looks swell. Have you any experience in synching audio and video between the display, switch and AVP? Are some of these better than the others? General idea is to have auto synch that does the job. So just wonder how well would display and AVP communicate through the switch?

Once you are forced to manual synch, it is already a sign that something in the chain does not work as intended. Not the end of the world but just a warning sign.
 
I imagine the price difference of the VRROOM may show up in reliability of managing EDID/timing. Curious how they would work with multiple sources and frequent input switching and if the price difference of the VRROOM shows up with such usage.
 
Just saw this and it looks amazing for most people. I especially like the license being included, if you have a dud unit, you don’t have to buy a new license like with other products, Marantz or Denon.

The only thing I would like is a full 20 channels for 15.4

HDMI 2.1 would have been nice
 
welwynnick said:
I came over all nerdy and looked at all the HDMI extractor switches I could find that would pass 4k120 video and lossless Atmos audio.
They all had a lot in common - HDMI 2.1, HDCP 2.3, 48Gbps bandwidth, 8k60 and 4k120 video, and most supported VRR, ALLM, DV and HDR10+.
The differences are in whether the audio is output over regular HDMI or by HDMI eARC (or both).
The model numbers have links to the manufacturer's pages.
Let me know if you find any others.
I particularly liked the modestly priced FeinTech and Orei switches.

MakeModelCost
GBP		HDMIHDCPInputOutputGbps4k8kVRRALLMQMSDVHDReARC Audio IneARC Audio OutHDMI Audio Out
BlustreamSM11EARC-8K2372.12.3114012060VRRALLM??HDRInOut-
BZBGear
BG-8K-42MA		4002.12.3424812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-Like Orei 402
BZBGearBG-8K-HS41A1492.12.3414812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-If TV has eARC
EZCOO /EZ-SW41H21A1302.12.341-12060VRRALLM?DVHDR10InOutOut
CORSAHDEZ-SW21H21A1302.12.321-12060VRRALLM?DVHDR10InOutOut
FeinTechAX3411762.12.3424824060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-
FeinTechAX3401352.12.3414824060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-
FeinTechAX310892.12.3114824060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-
FeinTechAX211802.12.3114812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+In-Out
FeinTechSW4111232.12.3414824060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+In-Out
HDFuryVROOM5492.12.3414812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOutOut
HDFuryARCANA3492.12.3114812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOutOut
J-Tech8KAE1182.12.311-12060---DVHDR10InOutOut
OreiBK-49291042.12.3414812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-
OreiBK-4927972.12.3414812060---DVHDR10+In-Out
OreiBK-931742.12.3114812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOutOut
OreiBK-929752.12.3114812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-
OreiBK-927602.12.3114812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+In-Out
OreiBK-401ARC602.12.3414812060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-If TV has eARC
OreiBK-402A1122.12.3424012060VRRALLMQMSDVHDR10+InOut-If TV has eARC
Click to expand...
Marmitek Connect AE34 supports 4K 120 Hz, 8K 60 Hz, HDCP 2.3, 2.2, 1.4, 48 Gbps, HDR10+, Dolby Vision, HLG, VRR, ALLM, QMS, SBTM, etc.

marmitek.com

Connect AE34 HDMI audio extractor with eARC – Buy now? | Marmitek

Extract audio from any HDMI source in 8K or 4K quality with the Marmitek Connect AE34. Supports eARC, Dolby Atmos, HDR, and multiple audio outputs.
marmitek.com marmitek.com
 
thcdru2k said:
Even Trinnov does not have Flex HTx style input PEQ. It has a preset-linked EQ layer before optimization so Trinnov optimizer reinterpret and overrides it anyways. For all the people complaining about miniDSP HDMI implementation...what AVP's out there have true 48gbps HDMI inputs ?
Click to expand...
The only one I know of is Audiocontrol Hyperion, again announced but not really available, double the advertised price of the Tide 16 and you have to buy Dirac licenses on top of that if you want it.

HDMI switch chips from Nuvoton which could actually do 48Gbit only became available in 2025.
 
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welwynnick said:
Since these are all so modestly priced, I think there's an opportunity to make the video switching disposable and updateable, and keep one good audio processor.
EDIT : Updated with Marmitek,
Click to expand...
Hoping that such things work in a general purpose sense is, unfortunately, a tad optimistic. Ie Mix and match hdmi is a recipe for losing your mind in frustration at the inexplicable flakiness once you plug pieces together.
 
Would it be nice if the Tide 16 had the HDMI functionality of the AudioControl Hyperion APR-16? Sure.

But even adding HDFury VRROOM, it's still significantly cheaper and offers more DSP flexibility (routing, matrix, active crossover).

If you don't need that level of control, Marantz AV10/AV20 make more sense but you would still be spending more money.
 
thcdru2k said:
Would it be nice if the Tide 16 had the HDMI functionality of the AudioControl Hyperion APR-16? Sure.

But even adding HDFury VRROOM, it's still significantly cheaper and offers more DSP flexibility (routing, matrix, active crossover).

If you don't need that level of control, Marantz AV10/AV20 make more sense but you would still be spending more money.
Click to expand...
The Marantz Amp 10 crushed the HT amp market.
 
One issue the HDFury units ( Vertex and VVroom for example) have been used to fix is the LLDV ( or Dolby Vision emulation / hack ) for a range of projectors which do not display DV from various sources without help.
You can find the AVS forum's threads which began in 2019 with work done by Dave Harper.
So adding a HDFury to the chain with an AV receiver or AV processor to take advantage of these advanced HDMI configuration features and splitting the audio output to the processor became a known setup for certain projector owners.

The setup works - split the source video output via the HDFury directly to the display and route the audio from the secondary HDfury HDMI output to the AV processor.
There is an argument there are advantages to this signal chain by avoiding any effect the AV processor might have on the video signal.
 
webmst007 said:
There is an argument there are advantages to this signal chain by avoiding any effect the AV processor might have on the video signal.
Click to expand...

And avoiding the effect of video on the AV processor (if you use HDMI eARC).
 
In audio video world, it is actually essential to keep them in synch. Adding boxes in between is not going to help that. Forums are full of horror stories even with simple display to AVR eARC setups.

There is absolutely no such thing as avoiding the effect of video on the AV processor. It is supposed to, by definition, handle both video and audio. If it can't handle video, it is actually audio processor only. Which is the whole confusion with Tide. It's identity is like in teenage age. Waiting to be discovered.
 
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