miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

[peng]

I don’t understand why people are making excuses for MiniDSP.

After thinking about it since we had the time with the delay, when the Tide16 gets native 2.1, I’ll reconsider.

To them, those might be real reasons based on facts.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

I believe the matrix mixer isn’t locked until Dirac filters are loaded. So these could be set up in advance of running ART but would not be editable after. That’s how I read the manual anyways. We won’t know for sure until it ships.

Yes. The channel config in Dirac is fixed at the calibration step and it will reject any modifications one tries to enable before it in the signal path.

 

[john61ct]

Do you need Dolby / DTS / immersive audio decoding?

Maybe one day, in theory. Meantime upsampling

EDIT - meant upmixing, sorry

 

[prerich]

Maybe one day, in theory. Meantime upsampling

Does the Tide 16 (due to Dirac) sample everything to 48khz or is it extended to 192khz?

 

[welwynnick]

Does the Tide 16 (due to Dirac) sample everything to 48khz or is it extended to 192khz?

Its all done at 48kHz.

 

[john61ct]

Does the Tide 16 (due to Dirac) sample everything to 48khz or is it extended to 192khz?

Yes using Dirac requires all DSP to run at 48kHz.

This allows for the exponentially higher taps count / processing power required by its automated phase correction and complex time-domain corrections, especially at lower frequencies.

If you want higher resolution - why?

or to use other less automated more precise FIR filter creation tools, then you must disable Dirac.

 

[john61ct]

Does the Tide 16 (due to Dirac) sample everything to 48khz or is it extended to 192khz?

Maybe one day, in theory. Meantime upsampling

Note my use of that last word was mistaken.

I meant converting Stereo signals to multichannel surround without using proprietary encoding formats like Atmos DTS etc.

aka **upmixing**

Different from the meaning you correctly inferred, increasing the sample rate of the signal.

 

[Lsc]

What in your use case requires 2.1, I don't believe that I have need of it?

I have a PS5. What I’m doing now with the XMC2 (G3P) is that I need to connect the PS5 directly to my 83G4 and eARC to the XMC2.

I would need to do the same thing with the Tide16. It’s not the end of the world but it would have been nicer to connect everything to the pre pro.

 

[TulseLuper]

I have had a PS5 connected to HDMI 2.0 for years. I guess ignorance is bliss. But I’m not very competitive…

 

[prerich]

Yes using Dirac requires all DSP to run at 48kHz.

This allows for the exponentially higher taps count / processing power required by its automated phase correction and complex time-domain corrections, especially at lower frequencies.

If you want higher resolution - why?

or to use other less automated more precise FIR filter creation tools, then you must disable Dirac.

Well, I do have recording that are in 96khz and 192khz (straight from the producer) and it's nice to play them at their native sample rates.

 

[peng]

87 pages, time to summarize some of the repeated/repeating points made?
I am doing this now because it is getting close to launch time, they finally seem to have committed to a date for "access to the shopping cart", whatever that means!

Note: "Reasons" to some might mean excuses, though imo, in some cases, when it comes to cost and time it is hard to distinguish between the two.

Reasons why miniDSP Tide did not offer the latest HDMI:

Understanding HDMI 2.1 vs 2.0 on Tide16

This is a great topic—and one that really deserves a deeper explanation, which is why we put together this FAQ. Since the launch of Tide16, one of the most common questions has been: “Why didn’t you include an 8K HDMI 2.1 module? You already had...

support.minidsp.com

Reasons why only 48 kHz sampling rate:

Why is Tide16 only 48k? Why not 192kHz?

As much as we’d love to crank the sample rate as high as possible, it’s just not that simple. Most decoding and upmixing stages run at 48 kHz because that’s what the decoding libraries expect. It’s also the standard rate used by studios when th...

support.minidsp.com

The links are for the FAQ's by miniDSP.

Note that their FAQ hinted (my interpretation) there might be hope? It said "Does this mean there will never be higher sample rate on Tide16? That's not what we said.. ;-)",

Also mentioned many times:

- only 3 HDMI inputs (have not seen any official reasons given, but I guess no need because at least the main reason is obvious..) Also, their forum admin said: "For your second request about HDMI. We do have a plan for linking up a Vroom but it's not yet ready. It will allow you a)have lot more inputs b)have a seemless switching c) have 8k for all those of you who need 8k. No timeline but it's coming. In the mean time, the feature of using one button changing source/settings/presets is already there. Please check out the scene selection."
- no Asychronus USB input for multichannel audio (https://www.minidsp.com/community/threads/tide16.24083/page-8#post-76667)
- HDMI does not do DSD, forum admin said: "DSD is planned but for V2. Right now we only accept PCM"

There are a few more Q&A that might help some deciding, but it takes time to search them out so I will update this post in the next few days.

Updated with more Q&As:

- No input PEQ like other minidsp devices such as the HTx. Forum Admin said: "Maybe in the future a good addition to add as indeed it would be nice to be able to control input eq"
- Configuration over network: Is it Ethernet cable only or wifi as well? Forum Admin: wifi is now enabled.

I don't know about others, but I got the impression that miniDSP will be adding features over time, like they have done with their other devices, latest being the HT and HTx. That's something we probably can't expect the popular brands do, though D+M did add a feature or two vis FW updates in the past.


Available date:

Tide16

Good eye, we'll edit that typo in the manual. Thanks for warning! DD+ is the lossy version and can indeed support ATMOS. With all the talk of everybody that complains that we're not supporting HDMI 8k, we're now talking of a support for ATMOS + ARC, on a very old standard by now.. Hard to please...

www.minidsp.com

Dear All, Great news is coming up.. Testing all finalized and the positive feedback we were waiting for from one of our partner just came in.
Just some minor tidying up, some clearing of some log files, and we're planning to release access to the shopping cart early next week. Units are already in QC stage. :love:

Thanks again for all your patience! An exciting page turning.

DevTeam

PS: Tmr is National holidays for us so we'll be back on Monday with more feedback.

 

[chelgrian]

87 pages, time to summarize some of the repeated/repeating points made?

Note: "Reasons" to some might mean excuses, though imo, in some cases, when it comes to cost and time it is hard to distinguish between the two.

Reasons why miniDSP Tide did not offer the latest HDMI:

Understanding HDMI 2.1 vs 2.0 on Tide16

This is a great topic—and one that really deserves a deeper explanation, which is why we put together this FAQ. Since the launch of Tide16, one of the most common questions has been: “Why didn’t you include an 8K HDMI 2.1 module? You already had...

support.minidsp.com

Reasons why only 48 kHz sampling rate:

Why is Tide16 only 48k? Why not 192kHz?

As much as we’d love to crank the sample rate as high as possible, it’s just not that simple. Most decoding and upmixing stages run at 48 kHz because that’s what the decoding libraries expect. It’s also the standard rate used by studios when th...

support.minidsp.com

The links are for the FAQ's by miniDSP.

Note that their FAQ hinted (my interpretation) there might be hope? It said "Does this mean there will never be higher sample rate on Tide16? That's not what we said.. ;-)",

Also mentioned may times:

- only 3 HDMI inputs (have not seen any official reasons given, but I guess no need because at least the main reason is obvious..) Also, their forum admin said: "For your second request about HDMI. We do have a plan for linking up a Vroom but it's not yet ready. It will allow you a)have lot more inputs b)have a seemless switching c) have 8k for all those of you who need 8k. No timeline but it's coming. In the mean time, the feature of using one button changing source/settings/presets is already there. Please check out the scene selection."
- no Asychronus USB input for multichannel audio (https://www.minidsp.com/community/threads/tide16.24083/page-8#post-76667)
- HDMI does not do DSD, forum admin said: "DSD is planned but for V2. Right now we only accept PCM"

There are a few more Q&A that might help some deciding, but it takes time to search them out so I will update this post in the next few days.

I am doing this now because it is getting close, they finally seem to have committed to a date for "access to the shopping cart", whatever that means!

Tide16

Good eye, we'll edit that typo in the manual. Thanks for warning! DD+ is the lossy version and can indeed support ATMOS. With all the talk of everybody that complains that we're not supporting HDMI 8k, we're now talking of a support for ATMOS + ARC, on a very old standard by now.. Hard to please...

www.minidsp.com

The only three inputs will simply be the switch chip is cheaper exactly the same applies to the Lyngdorf MP 40, which incidentally does have HDMI 2.1 but has a list price of 10k

 

[thcdru2k]

Well, I do have recording that are in 96khz and 192khz (straight from the producer) and it's nice to play them at their native sample rates.

Pretty much anyone using room correction with any AVP/AVR is having their source content resampled. It's a non-issue as the benefits of room correction and sub integration far outweigh the benefit of sample rate preservation in most cases.

 

[PGAMiami]

Well, I do have recording that are in 96khz and 192khz (straight from the producer) and it's nice to play them at their native sample rates.

I get it, it feels like you’re throwing away something you paid for when you down sample to 48khz. That said, if you’re using a high quality SRC, it really should be not audible for us humans. Roon has a great SRC. If you have something like Roon, just set it to convert everything to 48khz, including RedBook CDs. Back in the early days of digital it did matter because by using a higher sampling rate the digital noise was shifted to a much higher frequency and the DAC output stage could use filters that were less steep and arguably better sounding. Today most DACs deal with this internally so it’s not an issue. The benefits of Dirac far outweigh any damage from the SRC and it’s much more beneficial to let Dirac run at a lower sampling rate if it’s implemented on a processor with limited throughput, like we find in most any AVP or AVR. Some of my best sounding recordings are RedBook CDs. The higher sampling rate versions of many recordings do sound better, but I would speculate this is more because of careful mastering using the best possible original material and not because the version is at a higher sampling rate. The 24 bit words do make a bigger difference, but that’s not an issue with Dirac.

 

[john61ct]

Well, I do have recording that are in 96khz and 192khz (straight from the producer) and it's nice to play them at their native sample rates.

Only psychologically, there will not be any audible difference downsampling even if you didn't need to do so in order to manipulate the signals via DSP

 

[welwynnick]

It's a non-issue as the benefits of room correction and sub integration far outweigh the benefit of sample rate preservation in most cases.

The benefits of Dirac far outweigh any damage from the SRC and it’s much more beneficial to let Dirac run at a lower sampling rate if it’s implemented on a processor with limited throughput, like we find in most any AVP or AVR.

Only psychologically, there will not be any audible difference downsampling even if you didn't need to do so in order to manipulate the signals via DSP

It's difficult to argue with any of that, but I'm going to have a go anyway (again), even if it's only dogmatic philosophy.
I don't think AVP manufacturers should be telling us what we can and can't hear - that should be a higher level decision.

The entire audio replay chain is long, complex and expensive. It includes recording, producing, mastering, publishing, distributing, storing, playback, processing, amplification and speakers. The desire is to get the whole chain as close as possible to being transparent to the original performance, and the whole chain contributes to the end result. There will be a bottleneck in that chain which will constrain the overall performance.

When you take a holistic view about what sets the overall constraint, I believe it is distribution. The recording systems and the playback systems can change and improve over the years, and they continue to do so. What is much more difficult to change, once they're established, are the standards used for distribution - CD, DVD, BD, TV, satellite, streaming etc. That's where the true bottleneck is. If all the media used for distribution had the same digital audio format, that would be fine, but they don't.

Most of those media use 44.1 or 48 kHz sample rates, but there's plenty of material out there and in our collections that uses higher rates. That material is only there because the producers have chosen to distribute it, and because the consumers have chosen to consume it. That's where the decision has been made. And if that material is out there in significant measure, then that's what an AVP should be capable of playing IMHO. I think it's quite reasonable for cost-conscious AVR's to make a compromise and limit processing to 48k, but not over-priced high end processors.

I know I won't win this argument, but I don't care. When I'm rich and successful, I'm going to buy a Trinnov and glory in the processing power of it's $200 CPU.

 

[john61ct]

I 100% disagree.

Ignorant consumers perceive "higher number = GOOD"

The biggest bloc of consumer spending and higher profits comes from ignorance, so of course the capitalists take advantage, throwing money away boosts GDP everyone's happy.

Of course YOU can join in the inaudible wastage if you choose, but the whole ethos of this site fighting that ignorance, helping members make rational choices so their "extra money" is spent on stuff that actually benefits them, results in audible improvements.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

It's difficult to argue with any of that, but I'm going to have a go anyway (again), even if it's only dogmatic philosophy ........................................................................ I know I won't win this argument, but I don't care.

Even though a few of my favorite-sounding albums are 16/44.1, I'm with you.

 

[Bjorn]

No PEQ on inputs to start with is very disappointing. If there's no possibility for FIR for crossover either, it's not the product we're looking for unfortunately.

 

[markus]

No PEQ on inputs to start with is very disappointing. If there's no possibility for FIR for crossover either, it's not the product we're looking for unfortunately.

Who exactly is "we", and why do you require PEQ on inputs and FIR on outputs? Please specify your output requirements in more detail.