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miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

Mort said:
MiniDSP have always leaned on an HDMI splitter like the VRROOM to deal with video shortcomings of the product. Htx and flex are like that too. So, for an additional $500, you can have the Holy Grail with just moderate inconvenience.

I believe their answer to the question 'why doesn't this come with 2.1' is 'Get a VRROOM'.
That's been the standard answer to many video compatibility issues.


fwiw, VRROOM is very easy to use and just needs a hard restart 3-4 times a year for maintenance. And if you have multiple sources, get the extra remote!
The annoying part is the form factor - it's like a thick handheld tablet with a screen on two sides and a lot of cables coming out.
Click to expand...
In other words, it really does not work well?
 
welwynnick said:
Don't Use the Audio Processor to Process Video

I think the Tide is indeed a Holy Grail because (alongside the AVR-16) it's the only AV processor ever to get close to stereo equipment performance.
MiniDSP thought long and hard about including HDMI 2.1 / HDCP 2.3 capability, and make a conscious decision not to do it. They explained their reasons.
Nobody is under any obligation to agree with those reasons. We have choices, and you just have to decide what you want.
If you think HDMI 2.1 is essential for a top tier AVP, that's fine, don't buy a Tide16. Get something else instead. Please.
But the continual complaints about the lack of 2.1 are like going onto a Porsche forum and complaining that the back seats of the 911 are too small.

I'm not a gamer and have no interest in this, but can I offer a different perspective about why the absence of HDMI 2.1 is actually a good thing?
Before HDMI, many manufacturers produced AVP's, but that number, and the ensuing competition, have dwindled due to the technical difficulty of implementing HDMI, and keeping up with the never-ending specification evolution. It's a problem for AVPs because audio and video are unfortunately forced to sit alongside each-other in the same box.
Several people already mentioned using an HD Fury VROOM or similar to handle the video, leaving the audio to the processor. I think that works even better with eARC because then you don't send any video to the processor any more.

Other things being equal, having to use an extra box is undesirable, but I think it has two advantages:
(1) The AVP no longer has to keep up with advancing HDMI video standards - especially those associated with advances in gaming. The AVP is expensive, and you don't want to have to keep changing it. The HDMI switch is hardly disposable, but it's much cheaper to keep that up to date with technology.
(2) There are performance benefits to keeping digital video entirely out of the audio processor. For example, Amir measured the same performance using eARC as with USB or streaming on the Fosi ZD3 and Bluesound Node Icon - better than had ever been achieved with any AVP.

Therefore if you get a 48 Gbps HDMI switch to handle all the video, the audio processor can be optimised just for audio, and you can keep it for longer.
You chose the processor based on audio functionality / performance / price, so you can get better value than when you're constrained to getting an HDMI 2.1 processor.

Yes, the HD Fury VRROOM (or even 8k Arcana) is fairly expensive, but it's a master of all trades, and there are many good, cheaper, options:
(1) The EZ-SW41H21A-EO is an HDMI 2.1 HDCP 2.3 switch. It accepts 4 x 4k/120Hz VRR / ALLM/ DV inputs, plus eARC from a TV, and sends either HDMI or eARC to an AVP.
(2) The Orei BK-4927 is an HDMI 2.1 HDCP 2.3 switch. It accepts 4 x 4k/120Hz inputs, plus eARC from a TV, and sends audio HDMI to an AVP
(3) The Orei BK-4929 is an HDMI 2.1 HDCP 2.3 switch. It accepts 4 x 4k/120Hz VRR / ALLM/ DV inputs, plus eARC from a TV, and sends eARC to an AVP
Click to expand...
Back seats of 911 are actually not to small, but 16 channels on Tide are kind of tight. And HDMI debacle is a fact despite the attempts to soften it.

I would not be telling other people what they need. Time will tell what will Tide do and who will buy it.

If you are referring to SINAD supremacy, that is a mute point. There is no such thing as competition is at or above 100dB. Whatever you think can "hear" in excess of that is not really happening. And that is as we all know just in stereo mode. Unfortunately nobody has real measurements of AVRs or AVPs with max of their channels and room EQ engaged. Pitiful but just shows how (un)important this market segment is.
 
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prerich said:
Well....you have people who use Jriver and they doint use the normal 24fps they up it to 60fps...I I've seen those that like the "soap opera" effect do 120fps (especially if you have a great video card and SVP4). So there is another group of people that will side with gamers - saying 4k@120fps is what they want. They were sold out upon release (which didn't surprise me).
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They are not sold out they have never been available since the announcement in Jan the only people who might have a Tide 16 in their hands are beta testers.
 
Any idea how many bands of PEQ it supports for every channel?
Can the channels be defined? - Exampe defining multiple subs or an extra set of sides.
 
Sam Ash said:
Any idea how many bands of PEQ it supports for every channel?
Can the channels be defined? - Exampe defining multiple subs or an extra set of sides.
Click to expand...
According to the manual 20 filters per channel. If you use Dirac Live Bass Management, Bass Control or ART it locks the matrix mixer. If you want custom routing (more than 4 subs, multiple front/sides (distributed array), distributed bass, multi-way active, etc) you would have to avoid using Dirac. If you want multiple subs (more than 4) with Dirac ART, you could stack subs and connect multiple subs to one output or daisy chain and manually level match I imagine.
 
welwynnick said:
Don't Use the Audio Processor to Process Video

I think the Tide is indeed a Holy Grail because (alongside the AVR-16) it's the only AV processor ever to get close to stereo equipment performance.
MiniDSP thought long and hard about including HDMI 2.1 / HDCP 2.3 capability, and make a conscious decision not to do it. They explained their reasons.
Nobody is under any obligation to agree with those reasons. We have choices, and you just have to decide what you want.
If you think HDMI 2.1 is essential for a top tier AVP, that's fine, don't buy a Tide16. Get something else instead. Please.
But the continual complaints about the lack of 2.1 are like going onto a Porsche forum and complaining that the back seats of the 911 are too small.

I'm not a gamer and have no interest in this, but can I offer a different perspective about why the absence of HDMI 2.1 is actually a good thing?
Before HDMI, many manufacturers produced AVP's, but that number, and the ensuing competition, have dwindled due to the technical difficulty of implementing HDMI, and keeping up with the never-ending specification evolution. It's a problem for AVPs because audio and video are unfortunately forced to sit alongside each-other in the same box.
Several people already mentioned using an HD Fury VROOM or similar to handle the video, leaving the audio to the processor. I think that works even better with eARC because then you don't send any video to the processor any more.

Other things being equal, having to use an extra box is undesirable, but I think it has two advantages:
(1) The AVP no longer has to keep up with advancing HDMI video standards - especially those associated with advances in gaming. The AVP is expensive, and you don't want to have to keep changing it. The HDMI switch is hardly disposable, but it's much cheaper to keep that up to date with technology.
(2) There are performance benefits to keeping digital video entirely out of the audio processor. For example, Amir measured the same performance using eARC as with USB or streaming on the Fosi ZD3 and Bluesound Node Icon - better than had ever been achieved with any AVP.

Therefore if you get a 48 Gbps HDMI switch to handle all the video, the audio processor can be optimised just for audio, and you can keep it for longer.
You chose the processor based on audio functionality / performance / price, so you can get better value than when you're constrained to getting an HDMI 2.1 processor.

Yes, the HD Fury VRROOM (or even 8k Arcana) is fairly expensive, but it's a master of all trades, and there are many good, cheaper, options:
(1) The EZ-SW41H21A-EO is an HDMI 2.1 HDCP 2.3 switch. It accepts 4 x 4k/120Hz VRR / ALLM/ DV inputs, plus eARC from a TV, and sends either HDMI or eARC to an AVP.
(2) The Orei BK-4927 is an HDMI 2.1 HDCP 2.3 switch. It accepts 4 x 4k/120Hz inputs, plus eARC from a TV, and sends audio HDMI to an AVP
(3) The Orei BK-4929 is an HDMI 2.1 HDCP 2.3 switch. It accepts 4 x 4k/120Hz VRR / ALLM/ DV inputs, plus eARC from a TV, and sends eARC to an AVP
Click to expand...
Amen! Excellent and detailed write-up. Thank you.
 
Yes -
Add the additional HDMI device. Exclude the video chain from the audio processing.
Which AVP does LLDV and other advanced HDMI- based configuration management for projectors anywhere near this price point?
The Tide16 was never intended as an all-things -to-all-users AVP.
Nor are any existing minidsp devices.
They are all however ideal devices for the jobs they're designed to do.
They're suitability, value-for-money, reliability,and application success is evident by their continued popularity and sales success.
I expect the Tide16 will follow this trend.
 
thcdru2k said:
If you use Dirac Live Bass Management, Bass Control or ART it locks the matrix mixer. If you want custom routing (more than 4 subs, multiple front/sides (distributed array), distributed bass, multi-way active, etc) you would have to avoid using Dirac.
Click to expand...
I believe the matrix mixer isn’t locked until Dirac filters are loaded. So these could be set up in advance of running ART but would not be editable after. That’s how I read the manual anyways. We won’t know for sure until it ships.
 
I don’t understand why people are making excuses for MiniDSP.

After thinking about it since we had the time with the delay, when the Tide16 gets native 2.1, I’ll reconsider.
 
Lsc said:
I don’t understand why people are making excuses for MiniDSP.
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Nah. We just don't care that you aren't happy.
 
Lsc said:
ok Mr apologist. Whatever that means. You just sound pathetic. “Oh MiniDSP is the best company in the world. I’m so loyal”. Lemming.
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Please lay off the childish insults.

The fact is that a section of the customers do not need anything more than what is needed for UHD Blu-ray and that does not need HDMI 2.1 what we are taking issue with is a bunch of people claiming that something is DOA because it doesn’t fit their personal needs as gamers.
 
john61ct said:
I would prefer this device had no need of any HDMI connector at all.
Click to expand...
I firmly agree with that, and could think of a dozen different connections that could be used instead.
But the problem is that the owners of the material that we want to play need some sort of copy protection, so we're stuck with HDMI, and have to make the most of it.
At least we now have EARC, where you can send digital audio to a processor without being accompanied by any digital video whatsoever, which is half the battle IMHO.
 
I've never played a SINGLE file or disc or any content with any form of DRM or copy protection, in over four decades. Nor have I ever lived in a home with cable or paid streaming, nor "a television" since I was a child.
 
john61ct said:
I've never played a SINGLE file or disc or any content with any form of DRM or copy protection, in over four decades. Nor have I ever lived in a home with cable or paid streaming, nor "a television" since I was a child.
Click to expand...
Errr - OK.
Do you need Dolby / DTS / immersive audio decoding?
 
chelgrian said:
They are not sold out they have never been available since the announcement in Jan the only people who might have a Tide 16 in their hands are beta testers.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the correction and information.
 
Lsc said:
I don’t understand why people are making excuses for MiniDSP.

After thinking about it since we had the time with the delay, when the Tide16 gets native 2.1, I’ll reconsider.
Click to expand...
What in your use case requires 2.1, I don't believe that I have need of it?
 
I don’t really understand it. A lot of the vocal criticism about the lack of “full” HDMI 2.1 support seems to come from people expecting the Tide16 to be built entirely around their own setup and preferences.

I get the “squeaky wheel gets the grease” idea, but the Tide16 isn’t necessarily aimed at gamers or users trying to support every possible legacy and edge-case device. If it’s not aimed at you, it’s fine to move on.

There’s no need to frame that as a downside for everyone else. For many users, the Tide16 could end up being exactly what they’ve been looking for.

Venting here isn’t going to change the product.
 
I'd actually not buy anything until HDMI 2.2 and DV2 passthrough gets settled. It is not what you need only but what you can get on the market for your AVP - or whatever that is. I don't need turbo on my car either but kind of nice to have it.

It is obvious that Mini did not hire a smart (better read expensive) consultant for design validation as they would tell them that cutting themselves off from a growing market segment is kind of shooting yourself in the leg.
 
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