• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

101geo said:
I'm not a HT guy so I'm struggling to understand why HDMI 2.1 is a deal breaker for some. There is a simple workaround using a HDMI adapter. This is an audio forum and from what I can tell this has better audio quality and control than almost every sub £20k AVR out there so why do some keep coming back to this? Genuine question.
Click to expand...
maybe not quality but certainly the control you mentioned and that's where it differentiates itself. I'm sure Amir himself would say that above a certain level of SINAD sonic differences are imperceptible to the human ear in a double blind test.

I think the issue is that it's basically 1 protocol (not port but literal protocol) away from being an affordable AVP replacement. Literally 50% the cost of AVPs with that level of control.

Also, if this wasn't an AVP then why have DTS-X and Dolby Atmos?
 
john61ct said:
Yes, this is a fatal flaw AS AN AVP and gaming rig.

Still a very valuable device for audio purposes, where HDMI should really be shunned anyway.
Click to expand...
Yes, wolves come not in sheeps’ clothing, but rather over HDMI. It is what it is.
 
Dammit I was thinking about a Marantz or Denon AVP but this.... I guess the Holy Grail is worth waiting for.

I will have to move on to my amp upgrades while like Monty I wait for the Grail.
 
101geo said:
from what I can tell this has better audio quality and control than almost every sub £20k AVR out there so why do some keep coming back to this? Genuine question.
Click to expand...

Audibly it won’t be distinguishable from any of the others with features disabled.

As for audibly relevant features, it doesn’t offer the best upmixer for 2 channel recordings (Auro) or loudness compensation, so it’s degraded compared to competitors offering 1 or both. OTOH, global availability may be better than for the current best of breed under 10k USD (HTP-1).
 
jhaider said:
Audibly it won’t be distinguishable from any of the others with features disabled.

As for audibly relevant features, it doesn’t offer the best upmixer for 2 channel recordings (Auro) or loudness compensation, so it’s degraded compared to competitors offering 1 or both. OTOH, global availability may be better than for the current best of breed under 10k USD (HTP-1).
Click to expand...
Best of breed is a strong word but I am with you when addressing the number of options for limited number of channels. Each of us needs to determine what features we value and which we don't. Answers are what they are. I'd not trade my AV10 as HTP-1 is a bit short of channels, albeit more rich in features.
 
jhaider said:
HTP-1’s is the most adjustable. For 2-channel, RME’s is excellent.
Click to expand...
LOL buying a Ferrari for the cigarette lighter.

I'll finish testing these first, a bit more modular :-D

www.audiosciencereview.com

Pre-amps with Loudness - OSD Pre-1 ?

Most of my source-switchers and volume controls are analog-only, which is my preference. I am also frugal, some months actually poor 8-( I like having physical tone controls, and miss the old variable loudness curve feature, ideally automatically coupled with the volume level, but I guess that...
www.audiosciencereview.com www.audiosciencereview.com
 
if I wasn't a gamer, I'd be all over this. But I play at 4K 120hz VRR PC Gaming.

really looking forward to their next iteration. This seems close to perfect if they work the kinks about and allow people to have tweak and it
 
Last edited:
101geo said:
I'm not a HT guy so I'm struggling to understand why HDMI 2.1 is a deal breaker for some. There is a simple workaround using a HDMI adapter. This is an audio forum and from what I can tell this has better audio quality and control than almost every sub £20k AVR out there so why do some keep coming back to this? Genuine question.
Click to expand...
john61ct said:
Yes, this is a fatal flaw AS AN AVP and gaming rig.

Still a very valuable device for audio purposes, where HDMI should really be shunned anyway.
Click to expand...
As John61ct has stated, this is an audio and video processor. The inability to do 4k@120 is a big flaw! Even if 8k never hits the decks, frame rate is everything in gaming. I have a used 3 year old processor and every HDMI input is HDMI 2.1 (4K@120 and 8k@60), if you're putting out a new SOTA product ... it needs to be SOTA all the way around. I was excited about this until I saw that it was nerfed in it's frame rate...even my Marantz AV7706 could do 4k@120 ...but only through one input.
 
prerich said:
As John61ct has stated, this is an audio and video processor. The inability to do 4k@120 is a big flaw! Even if 8k never hits the decks, frame rate is everything in gaming. I have a used 3 year old processor and every HDMI input is HDMI 2.1 (4K@120 and 8k@60), if you're putting out a new SOTA product ... it needs to be SOTA all the way around. I was excited about this until I saw that it was nerfed in it's frame rate...even my Marantz AV7706 could do 4k@120 ...but only through one input.
Click to expand...
It’s only a flaw if you want to play games. If minidsp marketed it for movies only then you would never have considered the product and would not be complaining.

In any case the product is not even available and there is no update from mindsp as to when it might be so the whole question is academic.
 
chelgrian said:
It’s only a flaw if you want to play games. If minidsp marketed it for movies only then you would never have considered the product and would not be complaining.

In any case the product is not even available and there is no update from mindsp as to when it might be so the whole question is academic.
Click to expand...
Well....you have people who use Jriver and they doint use the normal 24fps they up it to 60fps...I I've seen those that like the "soap opera" effect do 120fps (especially if you have a great video card and SVP4). So there is another group of people that will side with gamers - saying 4k@120fps is what they want. They were sold out upon release (which didn't surprise me).
 
Holy grail was overstated its not a universal AVP killer. It's not elegant to use a VRROOM splitter as a work around for high-bandwidth video but it does technically work. It's not automatically a bargain against something like an HTP-1 especially when you factor in tariffs and cost of splitter. The gamers have a legitimate concern. It's still an excellent product if you want 16 balanced outputs and Dirac ART or miniDSP-style routing/crossover/control. It is not DOA but it's certainly not holy grail.
 
MiniDSP have always leaned on an HDMI splitter like the VRROOM to deal with video shortcomings of the product. Htx and flex are like that too. So, for an additional $500, you can have the Holy Grail with just moderate inconvenience.

I believe their answer to the question 'why doesn't this come with 2.1' is 'Get a VRROOM'.
That's been the standard answer to many video compatibility issues.
thcdru2k said:
It's not elegant to use a VRROOM splitter
Click to expand...

fwiw, VRROOM is very easy to use and just needs a hard restart 3-4 times a year for maintenance. And if you have multiple sources, get the extra remote!
The annoying part is the form factor - it's like a thick handheld tablet with a screen on two sides and a lot of cables coming out.
 
Last edited:
Motion interpolation, 3:2 pulldown and quintupling 24fps for a display with a 120Hz refresh rate are different things.

There actually are certain apps on certain devices that support movies in Dolby Vision and Dolby Atmos output at 120Hz. The quintupling of the frames is done at the source and the resulting video presentation is quite nice.

Many connect Macs or PCs to their AVP and not just for gaming. Perhaps they want perfect text with smooth movement and set output at 4K SDR RGB 10 bit color @120Hz. That particular setting will not be available to them going through the Tide 16.

While some do not care about the limitation, it is in fact an unfortunate limitation if not a completely criminal one like the 10Gbps ports that can still be found on new Sony AVRs. When did they give up?

There have been entry level AVRs out there priced at around $500 that feature four HDMI 2.1 40Gbps input ports. Why not here? I’m sure the decision was made after considering that eARC support meant those with 4K @120Hz capable devices could connect those devices directly to the TV.

Not all TVs supporting eARC are the same around back. Some feature but two 40Gbps ports and one of those ports might also be designated for eARC bringing the available 4K @120Hz ports down to one.

Many will not need 40Gbps or 48Gbps ports. But, they simply may want more ports. One might have a DVR, streamer and blu-ray player. But, what about that universal player they use for various discs? Something will have to be connected directly to the TV and it may as well be the DVR for TV viewing when wanting to use just the TV speakers because unlike many cheap AVRs, the Tide 16 does not support audio passthrough to the TV if the manual is to be believed. Though, that horrible manual is beta.

Some will look to other devices for video capabilities that result in improved presentations they can actually see rather than compromise for an audio presentation that couldn’t be distinguished from something else in a blind test. I’m always ticked when those of advancing years and declining hearing abilities swear to be able to hear as well or better than their kids and grand kids. Oh, those kids may not listen to you, but don’t believe for a second that they cannot hear better than you do.

IMG_6384.jpeg

IMG_6386.jpeg
 
Don't Use the Audio Processor to Process Video

I think the Tide is indeed a Holy Grail because (alongside the AVR-16) it's the only AV processor ever to get close to stereo equipment performance.
MiniDSP thought long and hard about including HDMI 2.1 / HDCP 2.3 capability, and make a conscious decision not to do it. They explained their reasons.
Nobody is under any obligation to agree with those reasons. We have choices, and you just have to decide what you want.
If you think HDMI 2.1 is essential for a top tier AVP, that's fine, don't buy a Tide16. Get something else instead. Please.
But the continual complaints about the lack of 2.1 are like going onto a Porsche forum and complaining that the back seats of the 911 are too small.

I'm not a gamer and have no interest in this, but can I offer a different perspective about why the absence of HDMI 2.1 is actually a good thing?
Before HDMI, many manufacturers produced AVP's, but that number, and the ensuing competition, have dwindled due to the technical difficulty of implementing HDMI, and keeping up with the never-ending specification evolution. It's a problem for AVPs because audio and video are unfortunately forced to sit alongside each-other in the same box.
Several people already mentioned using an HD Fury VROOM or similar to handle the video, leaving the audio to the processor. I think that works even better with eARC because then you don't send any video to the processor any more.

Other things being equal, having to use an extra box is undesirable, but I think it has two advantages:
(1) The AVP no longer has to keep up with advancing HDMI video standards - especially those associated with advances in gaming. The AVP is expensive, and you don't want to have to keep changing it. The HDMI switch is hardly disposable, but it's much cheaper to keep that up to date with technology.
(2) There are performance benefits to keeping digital video entirely out of the audio processor. For example, Amir measured the same performance using eARC as with USB or streaming on the Fosi ZD3 and Bluesound Node Icon - better than had ever been achieved with any AVP.

Therefore if you get a 48 Gbps HDMI switch to handle all the video, the audio processor can be optimised just for audio, and you can keep it for longer.
You chose the processor based on audio functionality / performance / price, so you can get better value than when you're constrained to getting an HDMI 2.1 processor.

Yes, the HD Fury VRROOM (or even 8k Arcana) is fairly expensive, but it's a master of all trades, and there are many good, cheaper, options:
(1) The EZ-SW41H21A-EO is an HDMI 2.1 HDCP 2.3 switch. It accepts 4 x 4k/120Hz VRR / ALLM/ DV inputs, plus eARC from a TV, and sends either HDMI or eARC to an AVP.
(2) The Orei BK-4927 is an HDMI 2.1 HDCP 2.3 switch. It accepts 4 x 4k/120Hz inputs, plus eARC from a TV, and sends audio HDMI to an AVP
(3) The Orei BK-4929 is an HDMI 2.1 HDCP 2.3 switch. It accepts 4 x 4k/120Hz VRR / ALLM/ DV inputs, plus eARC from a TV, and sends eARC to an AVP
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom