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miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

It was a general question, looking to replace my ViewSonic 1080p monitor - that only has HDMI and VGA.

I guess DisplayPort and USB-C DP Alt mode are the only mainstream alternatives these days?
Easiest would definitely be PC->HDMI->Tide16->HDMI->PC Monitor.

If you want to avoid HDMI at all cost, then you could do PC->DP->PC Monitor and PC->DP->DP Audio Extractor->Coax/Toslink->Tide16.
 
Where are you incorporating the Tide16 in your system? Using a monitor instead of a tv?
I clearly stated several times my question is off topic, nothing to do with Tide16, already apologized for that.

Perhaps my most recent post answers my own question.
 
Easiest would definitely be PC->HDMI->Tide16->HDMI->PC Monitor.

If you want to avoid HDMI at all cost, then you could do PC->DP->PC Monitor and PC->DP->DP Audio Extractor->Coax/Toslink->Tide16.
That OREI DPHD-912 is an interesting device! It states DP Alt Mode support, but the only USB-C port is labeled service only

Maybe that proprietary "DP|HD combo" port also accepts USB input?

I wonder if it also would accept DP hardware input to convert to USB-C DP Alt Mode OUTPUT?
 
I for one would love to see AVPs die.

Or rather, the proprietary-algorithm format decoding moved into specialist preamp units that DSP ONLY that function, let them plan churned obsolescence on that unit only, make it as cheap as possible, even a loss leader.

The systemic DSP functions - per-speaker EQ, crossovers, phase / time tuning, all bass management, room compensation functions in a separate box designed to have technological longevity.

Accommodate all filter types, imported from REW, rePhase, Acourate, MSO, Audiolens, the VST world, LADSPA / ACDf / asoundrc formats...

Connect the two different type boxen via multiple ADAT - or something else just as "open" NOT proprietary.

Sell 8- 16- 24- etc channel count units, allow for coordination between them so users can transparently stack them.
If they would do it....that would be called a computer. I look at the Trinnov and the JBL Synthesis SDP-80 ...they're computers!!!! Twenty - $50k for a computer?!!!! It should be able to be done but the proprietary cards and licensing is a major issue. I mean - how difficult is it to get with Asus, MSI, Gigabyte and whoever and allow Atmos and DTS-X be decoded from the motherboard and output to a 16 channel output card? I'd be giddy!!!!
 
The first thing that made me sit up and think was listening to someone playing sine waves and square waves at different frequencies. At the highest frequencies they sounded the same of course, but drop down a bit and I could hear the difference between sines and squares at 6 or 7 kHz. A square wave is composed of the fundamental plus just the odd order harmonics - 3rd, 5th, 7th etc. That meant I was hearing the difference that 18 and 21 kHz harmonics were making. But I can't hear single tones that high.

I knew that infinite baffle speakers sounded better because they were phase linear to lower frequencies than other subs. I was convinced that Storm and Trinnov prices were exorbitant until I realised they corrected phase as well as amplitude. This improved time domain performance, especially in the mid-range. Wondering if high frequency time domain performance was being compromised by amplifiers, I looked at the phase measurements performed by SoundStageNetwork, and I found nothing. However, they also tested DACs, and despite flat amplitude response, there was a clear correlation between sample rate and pass-band phase linearity, like this RME ADI-2.

Some research at Kyoto University by Shibasaki & others was published by the Journal of Neurophysiology where music was played to a large number of listeners with different bandwidth filtering applied. The 50kHz bandwidth was broken into two halves - audible and ultrasonic. By various means, the listeners could distinguish the audible sound from the audible + ultrasonic combined. The interesting bit is the ultrasonic sound was completely inaudible, when it was played on it's own, without the audible sound.

The other was the DBT by googlebot on hydrogenaudio mentioned above. He freely admitted that he couldn't hear (sinusoidal tones) above 17 kHz, but he could hear the difference between a 20 kHz speaker and a 50 kHz speaker. That test was indeed done with robust scientific principles - level matched, double blind, and randomised. Those are the rules on hydrogenaudio. Yes, the test material was taken from the same master, and even Arnold Kruger himself (RIP) said of the test methodology: "I don't see anything obvioiusly wrong with the samples." Googlebot performed multiple tests and got a foobar2000 test result with a high degree of confidence, and other people also got positive tests with over 95% confidence.

People often try to answer positive results like this by attributing it to intermodulation distortion, and foldback of high frequencies into the audible band. In googlebot's case, he was using the same DAC and amplifier, and if they were causing the IMD, then that would have been audible with the 20 kHz speakers. Of course the speakers themselves could have been causing the IMD, but it would probably have been even more audible with the inferior speakers, working outside their normal operating range.

Some people have said there were two variables at play - both different bandwidth and different depth of modulation (16 vs 24 bits). If that was the explanation for the results, then it wouldn't have made any difference which speakers were being used.
Sorry if this was answered already (much reading to do before I'm caught up), but did you compensate levels when switching between sine and square wave? Because the fundamental frequency level of a sine wave will be *lower* than within the same content in an equal peak level square wave. The difference (if I remember correctly, too lazy to calculate) is 4/pi = 2.1 dB.

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Can anyone confirm that VRR at 120Hz 4K HDR works? It's a little vague. They say they it supports VRR but they don't have a high bandwidth pipeline. That seems to be in reference to 8K though?

It's confusing. I have a PC and I game at 120Hz 4K HDR (don't care about DV) with VRR. Technically my display goes up to 165Hz but I need at least 120
 
That horse seems to be talking out of its a$$. They were definitely trying not to say outright that the HDMI ports only support 18Gbps but do feature VRR. The manual does not mention the bandwidth spec either but rather the supported resolutions and frame rates. The limit here will be the HDMI 2.0 18Gbps spec of 4K RGB 8 bit color @60Hz.

That bandwidth limitation will do no good for those wanting to game in 4K HDR RGB 12 bit color @120Hz as that would require 48Gbps without DSC supported in every device.

It is a shame that this particular AVP lacks even the 40Gbps HDMI ports seen on most new moderately priced AVRs not to mention the 24Gbps HDMI ports also featured on many of them.


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That horse seems to be talking out of its a$$. They were definitely trying not to say outright that the HDMI ports only support 18Gbps but do feature VRR. The manual does not mention the bandwidth spec either but rather the supported resolutions and frame rates. The limit here will be the HDMI 2.0 18Gbps spec of 4K RGB 8 bit color @60Hz.

That bandwidth limitation will do no good for those wanting to game in 4K HDR RGB 12 bit color @120Hz as that would require 48Gbps without DSC supported in every device.

It is a shame that this particular AVP lacks even the 40Gbps HDMI ports seen on most new moderately priced AVRs not to mention the 24Gbps HDMI ports also featured on many of them.


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I feel bad for them. HDMI 2.1 and this thing is a no brainer purchase for many people.

I really like the flexibility of it. Very Storm-like in that regard. Also, a small form factor is a big differentiator. I trust their nimble-ness to fix bugs fairly quickly over some of the larger manufacturers

So close to having a perfect product for me. If they add hdmi 2.1 (with a future product) sign me up!
 
If it had six HDMI 2.1 48Gbps or even 40Gbgps HDMI input ports, I would have had to really talk myself out of getting it. Though, the USB input spec of 48kHz is bothersome. I expect anything higher coming into it will result in no audio output? Or, is it just poorly written like much else in their manual?

Tide 16 USB Port.png
 
I feel bad for them. HDMI 2.1 and this thing is a no brainer purchase for many people.

I really like the flexibility of it. Very Storm-like in that regard. Also, a small form factor is a big differentiator. I trust their nimble-ness to fix bugs fairly quickly over some of the larger manufacturers

So close to having a perfect product for me. If they add hdmi 2.1 (with a future product) sign me up!
I'm not a HT guy so I'm struggling to understand why HDMI 2.1 is a deal breaker for some. There is a simple workaround using a HDMI adapter. This is an audio forum and from what I can tell this has better audio quality and control than almost every sub £20k AVR out there so why do some keep coming back to this? Genuine question.
 
Not all TV eARC implementations are equal. Issues will arise for many connecting certain devices directly to certain TVs and using eARC because their AVP/AVR does not support the expanded bandwidth available using HDMI 2.1 48Gbps or even 40Gbps ports. The annoyance of having to switch inputs to get the AVP's GUI up is also an annoyance. Some want their display to be nothing more than a display and connect all of their devices to a capable AVP/AVR. Those with HDMI 2.1 devices such as PCs and next gen gaming consoles capable of 4K @120Hz do not want to resort to adapters for a unit that is not exactly cheap and should have been equipped with at least 40Gbps HDMI 2.1 ports in 2026.

We are not talking about a niche group here. Gaming generates more revenue than the combination of home video and music combined. As much as some want the ultimate audio experience from a device such as the Tide 16, some others also want the ultimate video experience when gaming through it. But, that will not be had going through the Tide 16. To be fair, no AVP that I can think of at the moment supports every single feature of the HDMI 2.1 spec. But, not supporting 40Gbps at all and sporting but three 18Gbps input ports at this price point is just bulls#%t.
 
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Different AVP options for different people. In my case since I'm not a gamer, only a Movies and Music enthusiast the Tide 16 will be a good option besides the HP-1 and the Tonewinner AT600 specially at the current price point. Can't wait to see the performance reviews for the Tide 16 and AT 600. The HP-1 has pretty much consolidated in the market as one of the best AVP at the price point.
 
Not all TV eARC implementations are equal. Issues will arise for many connecting certain devices directly to certain TVs and using eARC because their AVP/AVR does not support the expanded bandwidth available using HDMI 2.1 48Gbps or even 40Gbps ports. The annoyance of having to switch inputs to get the AVP's GUI up is also an annoyance. Some want their display to be nothing more than a display and connect all of their devices to a capable AVP/AVR. Those with HDMI 2.1 devices such as PCs and next gen gaming consoles capable of 4K @120Hz do not want to resort to adapters for a unit that is not exactly cheap and should have been equipped with at least 40Gbps HDMI 2.1 ports in 2026.

We are not talking about a niche group here. Gaming generates more revenue than the combination of home video and music combined. As much as some want the ultimate audio experience from a device such as the Tide 16, some others also want the ultimate video experience when gaming through it. But, that will not be had going through the Tide 16. To be fair, no AVP that I can think of at the moment supports every single feature of the HDMI 2.1 spec. But, not supporting 40Gbps at all and sporting but three 18Gbps input ports at this price point is just bulls#%t.
Can't see it from an audio point of view. If I do get one I'll only use the usb or optical inputs so IMO better audio stuff inside is way ahead of video related HDMI issues. If this was a gaming or HT forum then I would join your protest but here, no way.
 
I'm not a HT guy so I'm struggling to understand why HDMI 2.1 is a deal breaker for some. There is a simple workaround using a HDMI adapter. This is an audio forum and from what I can tell this has better audio quality and control than almost every sub £20k AVR out there so why do some keep coming back to this? Genuine question.
And how do you know that? Have you measured it? And why do you think AVRs above 20K quid would sound better - and which are they? And then how they all compare with the room correction engaged - which we apparently don't measure even in 21st century, but say, yeah could be a hit of -20dB on SINAD as a "ball park".

I think people plain out explained why HDMI implementation is a deal breaker for them so not sure what is to struggle with. Different people different requirements. For me a deal breaker is I need more channels. It is obviously a great product but not for all.
 
And how do you know that? Have you measured it? And why do you think AVRs above 20K quid would sound better - and which are they? And then how they all compare with the room correction engaged - which we apparently don't measure even in 21st century, but say, yeah could be a hit of -20dB on SINAD as a "ball park".

I think people plain out explained why HDMI implementation is a deal breaker for them so not sure what is to struggle with. Different people different requirements. For me a deal breaker is I need more channels. It is obviously a great product but not for all.
A quick googly style search...
Captursinade.JPG

I know Tide16 is internal figures but they are usually spot on and this is Audio SCIENCE Review isn't it?
 
Can anyone confirm that VRR at 120Hz 4K HDR works? It's a little vague. They say they it supports VRR but they don't have a high bandwidth pipeline.
This is a perfect example, for this use case the 40+ Gbps is a hard requirement, trying to use adapters etc is a non-starter, even a lower quality cable can be fatal.

Sure audiophile-only use cases, not an issue, but as a cutting edge AVP this flaw makes for caveat emptor limitations
 
A quick googly style search...
View attachment 527753
I know Tide16 is internal figures but they are usually spot on and this is Audio SCIENCE Review isn't it?
We all know this - but my question was a bit more elaborate. Which is why we are on the Audio Science Review forum, not GTP chat bot forum.
 
Can't see it from an audio point of view. If I do get one I'll only use the usb or optical inputs so IMO better audio stuff inside is way ahead of video related HDMI issues. If this was a gaming or HT forum then I would join your protest but here, no way.
Only using USB or optical with Tide 16? Are you not planning on ever playing lossless multichannel signals over HDMI? While many here may prefer audio capabilities over video capabilities in their AVPs, this does not excuse miniDSP's decision to offer just three 18Gbps HDMI input ports. Even if one has no need for 4K @120Hz, they may be wanting concerning the amount of available ports. Some will have some devices connected directly to the TV and others to the Tide 16. If using HDMI-CEC with that combination of connections, good luck. Things can and do get ugly going that route with certain combinations of devices and TVs.
 
We all know this - but my question was a bit more elaborate. Which is why we are on the Audio Science Review forum, not GTP chat bot forum.
Apologies if I was wrong in answering only part of your question (Correctly!) and as for the chatbot quote, I did ask for sources.
 
Only using USB or optical with Tide 16? Are you not planning on ever playing lossless multichannel signals over HDMI? While many here may prefer audio capabilities over video capabilities in their AVPs, this does not excuse miniDSP's decision
Yes, this is a fatal flaw AS AN AVP and gaming rig.

Still a very valuable device for audio purposes, where HDMI should really be shunned anyway.
 
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