miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

[Tre2023]

Actually, while LG TVs will automatically turn ON Simplink(HDMI-CEC) when a device is connected to their eARC port, HDMI-CEC does NOT need to be ON at the receiving end for eARC to work.

Support for eARC is OFF by default in LG TVs. ARC will function if HDMI-CEC is ON at the receiving end but the signal will be limited to the ARC spec.

For those using LG TVs with AVP/AVRs and do NOT want HDMI-CEC wreaking havoc on their systems, make sure to turn eARC support ON in the TV and turn HDMI-CEC OFF at the receiving end. ARC support will still need to be turned ON at the receiving end.

There is not an AVP/AVR that does NOT support HDMI-CEC if it supports eARC as a device supporting eARC will also support ARC which does require HDMI-CEC at both ends to work. I cannot imagine the miniDSP Tide 16 working any differently.

As an example, if I want eARC to work in my LG TV and my Yamaha receiver but do NOT want Simplink(HDMI-CEC) in my LG TV to do anything save for sending audio signals over eARC, I turn eARC support ON in the TV and turn HDMI Control OFF and leave ARC support ON in the Yamaha receiver.

As an aside, eARC support being on in LG TVs will result in certain behaviors with certain signals and often DTS Neural:X will be locked out for up mixing duties at the receiving end if selected. Some signals will be sent as multichannel PCM from some of the TV’s apps while some will be sent as Dolby from other apps when eARC support is ON.

 

[RichB]

I think it is a very common issue that is not measured at ASR. You see hints of it when filters are inadvertently engaged.

For example, see Emotive RMC 1+ results below, with speakers set to Small a HPF is engaged and you get a low frequency noise penalty, with speakers set to Large the HPF goes away and so does the low frequency noise (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/emotiva-rmc-1-av-processor-review.66077/).

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I've long advocated for some standardized tests in this area, but I don't think they are coming. Better to have your own measurement capability if you are curious.



Michael

Yep, Emotiva may not be alone in the elevated noise when digital processing is engaged.

- Rich

 

[chelgrian]

LG advertises 5 years support, but others do not...

Since my family uses iPhones, an ATV4K is connected to each TV.
HDMI-CEC works very well powering the device on and off and controlling the volume, which takes the system back to a single remote control.
This has huge (FAF), Family Approval Factor.

The Tide16 specification includes eARC but does not explicitly support HDMI-CEC.
It likely does support HDMI-CEC because LG (and likely others) require HDMI-CEC it for eARC.

- Rich

The manual calls out it supports CEC and it’s always on and non-configurable thus causes a problem for some displays because you end up with everything on when you don’t want the display on as you are just listening to music…

 

[Tre2023]

Unfortunately for some who may connect older ARC capable TVs to the miniDSP Tide 16, multichannel audio the likes of lossy Atmos/DD+ is NOT supported by the Tide 16 over ARC and an external device connected directly to the Tide 16 will be required. This is a peculiar limitation in a new AVP supporting Dolby and DTS. Again, those wanting what many believe will be an amazing audio presentation from the miniDSP Tide 16 will have to make certain concessions to get it.

 

[EWL5]

Unfortunately for some who may connect older ARC capable TVs to the miniDSP Tide 16, multichannel audio the likes of lossy Atmos/DD+ is NOT supported by the Tide 16 over ARC and an external device connected directly to the Tide 16 will be required. This is a peculiar limitation in a new AVP supporting Dolby and DTS. Again, those wanting what many believe will be an amazing audio presentation from the miniDSP Tide 16 will have to make certain concessions to get it.

View attachment 526530

I've always said this product was very niche. No new developments have appeared to change my mind!

 

[RichB]

Thanks, were the lower numbers mainly due to increased noise or distortions? Also, if the lower performance is in proportion across different platforms, lowering from 118 dB SINAD is still going to be lowering from 100 dB. (100-30=70, 118-30=88 (still quite good).

Regardless, for SINAD chasers who want to use the same HT system for pure direct audio enjoyment, the Tide 16 might be the only game for the time being, which other AVP can do better than 110 dB or even 107 dB SINAD in pure direct mode, other than miniDSP that anyone is aware of?

It is great that MiniDSP includes AP measurements and the results are excellent with a 20kHz LPF.
ASR measurements usually bandwidth limited to 48kHz, so the results will probably be a bit lower.

I'd like to see all processors measured with volume control engaged.
Something like -20 dB would be a good start.

I don't know if digital volume control stacks up against more traditional analog volume controls.

- Rich

 

[welwynnick]

ASR measurements usually bandwidth limited to 48kHz, so the results will probably be a bit lower.

You might be thinking of the THD+N vs frequency tests.

The FFT dashboards are done at 22.4kHz, so very little difference.

 

[chelgrian]

Unfortunately for some who may connect older ARC capable TVs to the miniDSP Tide 16, multichannel audio the likes of lossy Atmos/DD+ is NOT supported by the Tide 16 over ARC and an external device connected directly to the Tide 16 will be required. This is a peculiar limitation in a new AVP supporting Dolby and DTS. Again, those wanting what many believe will be an amazing audio presentation from the miniDSP Tide 16 will have to make certain concessions to get it.

View attachment 526530

If this is actually true then it’s a deal breaker for me as then I’d also need a HD Fury product to workaround this limitation. It’s quite a bizarre limitation given the nature of the HDMI standard.

 

[john61ct]

LOL "standard"

mandatory XKCD #927 reference

 

[welwynnick]

If this is actually true then it’s a deal breaker for me as then I’d also need a HD Fury product to workaround this limitation. It’s quite a bizarre limitation given the nature of the HDMI standard.

It does seem strange, but maybe you could use the toslink input instead?

 

[markus]

Unfortunately for some who may connect older ARC capable TVs to the miniDSP Tide 16, multichannel audio the likes of lossy Atmos/DD+ is NOT supported by the Tide 16 over ARC and an external device connected directly to the Tide 16 will be required. This is a peculiar limitation in a new AVP supporting Dolby and DTS. Again, those wanting what many believe will be an amazing audio presentation from the miniDSP Tide 16 will have to make certain concessions to get it.

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That’s a constraint of ARC, not Tide16. Bandwidth ARC 1 Mbps, eARC up to 37 Mbps.

 

[RichB]

That’s a constraint of ARC, not Tide16. Bandwidth ARC 1 Mbps, eARC up to 37 Mbps.

ARC should support lossless multi-channel Audio within the 1 Mbit/second audio bandwidth.

HDMI ARC and eARC: Audio Return Channel Explained

HDMI’s ARC, or Audio Return Channel, can make your gear easier to use. Here’s how.

www.cnet.com

I am hoping the Tide16 also supports CEC to provide, Power On/Off, Volume Control, and Mute functions.

- Rich

 

[Paul7777x]

Still no date for release yet anyone?

 

[Oddball]

Still no date for release yet anyone?

At least we can listen to Heart of Glass and other great songs until we get somewhere.

 

[Tre2023]

That’s a constraint of ARC, not Tide16. Bandwidth ARC 1 Mbps, eARC up to 37 Mbps.

View attachment 526589

A lossy(compressed) Atmos/DD+ bitstream is capable over ARC but is not shown in this chart. Lossless(Uncompressed) multichannel signals of any sort would NOT be available over ARC.

I do hope miniDSP is mistaken about their information concerning ARC and lossy(Compressed) Atmos/DD+ bitstreams over ARC will work as intended. If not, they need to change it.

 

[chelgrian]

It does seem strange, but maybe you could use the toslink input instead?

TOSLINK can’t transfer EAC3, Some implementations that only claim ARC, not EARC such as the one in my Sony ZD9 can. I’m currently transferring AC3 using TOSLINK from the ZD9 to a AudioLab 8000AP.

 

[chelgrian]

ARC should support lossless multi-channel Audio within the 1 Mbit/second audio bandwidth.

HDMI ARC and eARC: Audio Return Channel Explained

HDMI’s ARC, or Audio Return Channel, can make your gear easier to use. Here’s how.

www.cnet.com

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I am hoping the Tide16 also supports CEC to provide, Power On/Off, Volume Control, and Mute functions.

- Rich

That table is very weird as it’s originally from HDMI.org but is very wrong. ARC was literally originally implemented by putting a SPDIF encoder/decoder on some spare pins and mediating use over CEC. Even at the minimum requirement of 16 bit stereo LPCM at 48KHz that still works out to 1.5Mbit/s. In reality a lot of implementations can do the equivalent of 24 bit @ 192KHz which is closer to 9Mbit/s.

What changed in ~2016 or 17 was manufacturers allowing EAC3 to be negotiated over ARC which was never part of the original spec as it literally didn’t exist at the time.

 

[markus]

A lossy(compressed) Atmos/DD+ bitstream is capable over ARC but is not shown in this chart. Lossless(Uncompressed) multichannel signals of any sort would NOT be available over ARC.

I do hope miniDSP is mistaken about their information concerning ARC and lossy(Compressed) Atmos/DD+ bitstreams over ARC will work as intended. If not, they need to change it.

What the chart actually shows is the official definition of “HDMI certified.” In practice, though, many setups can go beyond that, it’s just not formally recognized. miniDSP’s statement above is likely a mix of playing it safe and slightly unfortunate wording.

 

[Tre2023]

Much about the implementations of various features of the HDMI spec have been unfortunate. Manufacturers can pick and choose the features they support and get away with marketing their products as supporting the latest HDMI spec.

ARC supported a certain amount of bandwidth which was enough for DD(AC-3) and later DD+(EAC-3) which includes Atmos from streaming services. Odd for a new device not to continue to support ARC in a way that has been done so by many for a decade. But, that may not end up being the case.

As chelgrian mentioned in a prior post, HDMI-CEC is enabled by default and cannot be turned off in the Tide 16. Things will get interesting when connected to certain TVs. Though, all of the features of HDMI-CEC are not supported here. Everything about HDMI in the Tide 16 is compromised.

 

[RichB]

The TIde16 will support DD+ via ARC, this was a typo.
HDMI-CEC input switching may be missing, so I asked about that.


From the MiniDSP forum.

Good eye, we'll edit that typo in the manual. Thanks for warning! DD+ is the lossy version and can indeed support ATMOS. With all the talk of everybody that complains that we're not supporting HDMI 8k, we're now talking of a support for ATMOS + ARC, on a very old standard by now.. Hard to please everybody

HDMI-CEC Input Switching.

Just a follow up on HDMI-CEC.
This has become a huge feature for FAF (Family Approval Factor).
From the manual, HDMI-CEC support is present, but omits changing the source input.
This is very important for HDMI-CEC.

For the Apple TV HDMI-CEC to work flawlessly, the following is required.

1. Volume Control
2. Mute Control
3. Power On and Off
4. Input Switching on the Tide16

Without (4.) Input switching, there is no guarantee that using the ATV remote to control the system works properly.
The system can power on to the wrong input and sometimes a blank screen.

- Rich

- Rich