miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

[peng]

What is the AV9? Is it another new AV processor being developed and by who?

For Marantz AVP, so far the lower the model number the better the AVP, so I just joked around about the AV9 might be the next "better" one. Whatever the model will be, I think we would have to wait, for may be at least 2 more years. By that time, miniDSP may be ready for the Tide 17 (joking, guessing again..).

 

[rolfrander]

By that time, miniDSP may be ready for the Tide 17 (joking, guessing again..).

Or Tide 24 or Tide 32 (given that the number represents the number of channels)

 

[peng]

Or Tide 24 or Tide 32 (given that the number represents the number of channels)

Being selfish, I hope it will be Tide 17, or Tide16 version 2, because I don't need/want more channels, such better or same audio performance specs but add new features such as input PEQ control, 192 kHz (okay will accept 96 kHz if required to avoid cost exploding), and HDMI 2.1. People who need more channels can always go with the likes of Trinnov's.

 

[peng]

Actually, I would also like miniDSP to offer the option (not sure if it's there, if not, hopefully it can be done via FW update) to disable RC/DL, or direct mode such that sampling rate won't be limited to 48 kHz. I still don't think it would make audible difference, but clearly lots of people do believe that, so it would be great as a good psychological reason. Most popular brand such as D+M, Yamaha, Onkyo have such direct mode, so I hope miniDSP won't be too stubborn about this one.

If they do offer this feature, I think they will lose potential customers (those who prefer direct/pure direct mode for what they call "series music listening") is to the AV10,20, even the AV30. Now that I am thinking about this, I should go back to their forum and add it to the wish list (but again, assuming there is in fact no such mode when first launched).

 

[-Matt-]

Actually, I would also like miniDSP to offer the option (not sure if it's there, if not, hopefully it can be done via FW update) to disable RC/DL, or direct mode such that sampling rate won't be limited to 48 kHz. I still don't think it would make audible difference, but clearly lots of people do believe that, so it would be great as a good psychological reason. Most popular brand such as D+M, Yamaha, Onkyo have such direct mode, so I hope miniDSP won't be too stubborn about this one.

If they do offer this feature, I think they will lose potential customers (those who prefer direct/pure direct mode for what they call "series music listening") is to the AV10,20, even the AV30. Now that I am thinking about this, I should go back to their forum and add it to the wish list (but again, assuming there is in fact no such mode when first launched).

The specification says that there will be an unlimited number of presets. (Which may mean that you have to change between them via a PC, rather than switching between presets that are stored on the device).

Either way, it should be pretty easy to define a preset with straight passthrough filters to use as direct mode. (Although this won't be able to magically enable a higher sampling rate).

 

[markus]

input PEQ control

In what way would you use it?

HDMI 2.1.

Which specific HDMI 2.1 feature do you need?

 

[peng]

In what way would you use it?

Which specific HDMI 2.1 feature do you need?

I don't need any, but it seems (just my impression though) that quite a few posts were about the lack of 2.1, and I wonder if that's limited to those who want >18 Gbps, say at least 40 Gbps.

 

[RichB]

Will the Tide16 at release support these features:

• Power on Volume Level - to assure no surprised
• Maximum Volume Level - to avoid runaway volume (remove stuck in the seat cushions
• HDMI-CEC - allowing the ATV4K to power the system on and off, automatically switch inputs, and control the volume

- Rich

 

[RichB]

Which specific HDMI 2.1 feature do you need?

FWIW, QMS-VRR (not to be confused with VRR)

- Rich

 

[Tre2023]

I understand the frustration of some concerning just three HDMI 2.0 18Gbps ports on the Tide 16. Some care not and do not need anything more than is featured. Some are willing to connect capable devices directly to their TVs. But, not all TVs handle eARC the same way or support DTS.

Some TVs, looking at you LG, require HDMI-CEC to be ON for eARC to function. This can introduce issues if one wants it off and must make sure it is off in every other device in the system and some devices do not allow for it to be turned completely off.

Another potential problem is the way multichannel PCM signals are sent from some TVs and devices. Often, the AVP/AVR will recognize an incoming signal as Dolby MAT and the DTS Neural:X up mixer will be locked out and not selectable at all.

These issues can be avoided when those with PCs, Macs and next generation gaming consoles that support 4K @120Hz and other HDMI 2.1 features can connect them directly to an AVP/AVR equipped with capable ports. Onscreen menu overlay will then be available for every connected device save for using the TVs tuner or any of its Smart apps.

 

[RichB]

Some TVs, looking at you LG, require HDMI-CEC to be ON for eARC to function. This can introduce issues if one wants it off and must make sure it is off in every other device in the system and some devices do not allow for it to be turned completely off.

Another potential problem is the way multichannel PCM signals are sent from some TVs and devices. Often, the AVP/AVR will recognize an incoming signal as Dolby MAT and the DTS Neural:X up mixer will be locked out and not selectable at all.

These issues can be avoided when those with PCs, Macs and next generation gaming consoles that support 4K @120Hz and other HDMI 2.1 features can connect them directly to an AVP/AVR equipped with capable ports. Onscreen menu overlay will then be available for every connected device save for using the TVs tuner or any of its Smart apps.

The LG G6 eARC does indeed required HDMI-CEC to be engaged.
ATV4K requires Dolby MAT for full functionality.
And yes, and OSD on screen display overlay is very helpful.

Hopefully, they have a good beta tester pool...

- Rich

 

[Tre2023]

I did have issues with Apple TV 4K gen 1 once upon a time concerning Dolby MAT over eARC and DTS Neural:X was locked out. It seems to have been fixed with an update or I just had a handshake issue. Some devices still have issues when outputting multichannel PCM signals and the C1 displays the signal as Dolby MAT 8ch 192kHz rather than multichannel PCM 48kHz like that from the Apple TV 4K save for Atmos. This results in the DTS Neural:X lockout.

With eARC support ON in the C1 and streaming from internal apps, some signals are output as multichannel PCM from certain apps rather than as a DD+ bitstream and DTS Neural:X is locked out. Turn eARC support OFF, and DD/DD+ is output but bandwidth is then limited to the ARC spec and will not cut it for devices such as the Apple TV 4K connected directly to the TV.

 

[Krillin]

Question about miniDSP Tide16 for active speakers

The Trinnov Altitude seems to allow active speakers to be integrated and optimized from in-room measurements, without needing the user to do full ground-plane measurements or have extensive loudspeaker-design knowledge. Trinnov also openly describes its platform as supporting active crossovers and loudspeaker/room optimization.

Does the miniDSP Tide16 with Dirac ART work in a similar way?

Or is it still basically a standard active-DSP approach where you must first configure the speaker crossover, time alignment, and voicing yourself, and then use Dirac afterward for room correction / bass optimization?

I realize ART is more advanced than normal room EQ, but I’m trying to understand whether Tide16 can actually help set up an active speaker from in-room measurements, or whether it mainly assumes the speaker is already sorted out before Dirac is run.

Interested in hearing from anyone who has compared the Tide16 approach directly with Trinnov.

 

[Mort]

Or is it still basically a standard active-DSP approach where you must first configure the speaker crossover, time alignment, and voicing yourself, and then use Dirac afterward for room correction / bass optimization?

You do not have to specify crossover or timing in dirac art.

Voicing? You mean target curve? Yes you supply that via the interface.

 

[Mort]

I'm just happy they called the product an actual word, instead of the usual "FXD-76-a1" nomenclature we so often see.

 

[Krillin]

I understand the user still has to choose the crossover points and slopes. What I’m trying to determine is whether the Tide16 with Dirac ART can integrate a multi-way active speaker accurately from normal in-room measurements, or whether proper driver blending still requires the usual quasi-anechoic methods first.

My understanding is that Trinnov Altitude can do much more of this within its in-room measurement workflow, so that speaker integration and room correction are handled together, without necessarily needing outdoor measurements, raised free-space measurements, gated measurements, or similar techniques beforehand.

So is the Tide16 meaningfully similar in that respect, or is it still basically a conventional miniDSP workflow where the speaker must be dialed in first using traditional measurement methods, with Dirac/ART applied afterward?

 

[Mort]

r is it still basically a conventional miniDSP workflow where the speaker must be dialed in first using traditional measurement methods, with Dirac/ART applied afterward?

I don't understand what you are asking. I suspect you are not getting answers because others are similarly confused.

What conventional mini DSP method requires 'traditional measurement methods' first and what are they?

 

[staticV3]

What I’m trying to determine is whether the Tide16 with Dirac ART can integrate a multi-way active speaker accurately from normal in-room measurements

No software can do that accurately, as in-room response measurements lack data on directivity, distortion, compression, etc. which is vital for tuning a multi-way loudspeaker.

 

[Lsc]

I understand the user still has to choose the crossover points and slopes. What I’m trying to determine is whether the Tide16 with Dirac ART can integrate a multi-way active speaker accurately from normal in-room measurements, or whether proper driver blending still requires the usual quasi-anechoic methods first.

My understanding is that Trinnov Altitude can do much more of this within its in-room measurement workflow, so that speaker integration and room correction are handled together, without necessarily needing outdoor measurements, raised free-space measurements, gated measurements, or similar techniques beforehand.

So is the Tide16 meaningfully similar in that respect, or is it still basically a conventional miniDSP workflow where the speaker must be dialed in first using traditional measurement methods, with Dirac/ART applied afterward?

Probably more of the “conventional” MiniDSP. There have been no information on an automated crossover optimization for active speakers that’s part of the Trinnov optimizer that MiniDSP had developed that works with Dirac. Also Dirac is pretty close looped on their technology so this is probably not achievable unless this is incorporated by Dirac as an additional feature.

If you are leaning towards the Trinnov because of these advanced features, that seems like the right choice. Sounds like it’s one of those cases where you get what you pay for.

 

[Krillin]

I was referring specifically to points 3 and 4 in the miniDSP link below. miniDSP itself notes that the room significantly affects measured response below about 600 Hz, which is why outdoor measurements, nearfield measurements, or other special techniques are often used when integrating active speakers.

https://www.minidsp.com/applications/digital-crossovers/active-speakers-dirac-live

My understanding is that this is not required to the same extent with Trinnov, and I was simply wondering whether the addition of Dirac ART changes that for miniDSP. In other words, does ART make in-room active speaker integration substantially easier, or is it still basically the same miniDSP workflow underneath?

Lsc is probably correct that these deeper loudspeaker-integration features are still mostly Trinnov territory. That is not meant as criticism of miniDSP; it is just the reality that capability has to be viewed in light of price. Trinnov costs about as much as a low-end Toyota, so some difference in functionality is to be expected.