miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

[Mort]

I'm just wondering why there is so much hype about the Tide16 and very little chatter about the upcoming Hyperion DPR-16? I do understand the use cases are different but I'm still surprised that the latter seems to be getting very little attention...interested in your views on the reason why that's the case.

Not that many people have multi channel digital inputs. TIDE fits more existing systems.

 

[101geo]

Lots of HT stuff mentioned but none can do flexible full active crossovers which is what a lot of us are looking for in an audio oriented processor.

 

[EWL5]

Lots of HT stuff mentioned but none can do flexible full active crossovers which is what a lot of us are looking for in an audio oriented processor.

Is that going to be relevant when using Dirac ART that doesn't have traditional crossovers?

 

[thcdru2k]

Is that going to be relevant when using Dirac ART that doesn't have traditional crossovers?

There maybe some edge cases I can think of I guess where full band splitting would be useful. Someone who wants to do directional / distributed bass on their own. You can kind of fake this by utilizing subs L/R input and feed sub two different outputs from Tide 16. Another is the DIY community that have separately amplified drivers. I've seen exotic custom built speakers with independently amplified drivers.

 

[EWL5]

There maybe some edge cases I can think of I guess where full band splitting would be useful. Someone who wants to do directional / distributed bass on their own. You can kind of fake this by utilizing subs L/R input and feed sub two different outputs from Tide 16. Another is the DIY community that have separately amplified drivers. I've seen exotic custom built speakers with independently amplified drivers.

That's fine but for anyone doing that, they probably don't need to overpay for a product that has a Dirac ART license included, right?

 

[101geo]

Is that going to be relevant when using Dirac ART that doesn't have traditional crossovers?

It is if you want to run 3 or 4 way active front speakers, very relevant in fact as Dirac can't do that. The cheapest reliable unit I can find to do that here in the UK is the Audiocontrol APR-16 (£10k+ 3 times the price of the Tide16) That leaves 8 or 10 channels for subs and surrounds that Dirac will integrate for room correction.

 

[thcdru2k]

That's fine but for anyone doing that, they probably don't need to overpay for a product that has a Dirac ART license included, right?

They don’t, but I just don’t think there are many reasonably priced consumer options that give you that level of control in an HDMI Atmos box. If there is something out there, it is probably a pro DSP style chain and ends up being a cable and setup headache. I still think there are cases where someone would want Tide16 even if they don’t care about ART, like if placement and room treatment are already good and they are mainly focused on IIR tuning, routing flexibility, and clean multichannel performance. I'm using Flex HTx in that manner without room correction; but it would be nice to get rid of my Denon AVR (I use it for decoding/HDMI switching).

 

[Bjorn]

Lots of HT stuff mentioned but none can do flexible full active crossovers which is what a lot of us are looking for in an audio oriented processor.

Good to see someone who actually understands the product and the benefit!

 

[thcdru2k]

It’s interesting looking at the progression. The DDRC-88A showed up to add Dirac to AVRs that had preouts but no room correction. Then Flex HTx came along to give a lot more routing and input flexibility and the option to run a system without relying on Dirac at all. Now with Tide16 it feels like the focus swings back toward Dirac again, this time with ART at the center.

 

[101geo]

Good to see someone who actually understands the product and the benefit!

I thought I'd wondered into AVS rather than ASR...

 

[peng]

It’s interesting looking at the progression. The DDRC-88A showed up to add Dirac to AVRs that had preouts but no room correction. Then Flex HTx came along to give a lot more routing and input flexibility and the option to run a system without relying on Dirac at all. Now with Tide16 it feels like the focus swings back toward Dirac again, this time with ART at the center.

In my use case I do have to rely on Dirac if I want flatter frequency response and good impulse response. Have not tried ART yet, the HTx don’t have that option.

 

[dsd4life]

@devteam what is the know on the Arcam has a history of Dirac high frequency (96 kHz or193 kHz) Diract integration; we think the AVP45 Radia will do multichannel Dirac at 24 Bit 96 Khz?

 

[jam]

hiI'm just wondering why there is so much hype about the Tide16 and very little chatter about the upcoming Hyperion DPR-16? I do understand the use cases are different but I'm still surprised that the latter seems to be getting very little attention...interested in your views on the reason why that's the case.

Price will be the biggest issue, $4K for the DPR-16 vs $3500 for the Tide-16. The Tide 16 includes the whole Dirac Suite whereas for the DPR-16, it will likely have to be purchased on a per module basis (chi-ching chi-ching). The webpage for the DPR-16 indicates: "Hyperion also supports modular Dirac-licensed software extensions—such as Limited or Full Bandwidth Room Correction, Bass Control, and Active Room Treatment.".

Dante or AES67 is expensive to implement. If you buy speakers with Dante/AES67 connectivity, typically they're more expensive than traditional speakers with crossover networks even when you consider the component reduction (crossover/DAC/amp) from a traditional audio chain. For Dante/AES67 speakers those components just pile up inside the speaker in multiples, i.e. a DSP board plus a DAC/amplifier combo for each driver, this quickly adds up. Furthermore, you have no control over the selection and specs of the DAC and amplifier technology used in a Dante/AES67 equipped speaker. Trying to add DIY Dante/AES67 to your own speakers by guttting out the crossover and replacing it with a DSP based crossover board with multiple outputs suitable for those affordable high-performance DACs that Amir tests and adding a DAC/amp for each speaker driver also quickly adds up. I've searched and it's hard to find affordable DSP crossover boards with the desired multiple digital outputs, they're often only two-way designs and they usually have an I2S interface, so add an extra I2S to SPDI/F module to feed the DAC.

Another miss for the DPR-16 is the lack of USB audio playback for those who want it. Audio playback other than through one SPDI/F jack or one Toslink jack and HDMI is all network based with Dante/AES67. And let's not forget a complete lack of any analog input whatsoever; sorry vinyl lovers.

One thing that I find surprising and amusing for the Hyperion APR-16 ($8K), its big brother that has 16 analog balanced outputs with ESS Sabre ES9039QTM DACs, is the owner manual. A real lightweight at only 36 pages. Are you kidding me?

 

[pat355]

Price will be the biggest issue, $4K for the DPR-16 vs $3500 for the Tide-16. The Tide 16 includes the whole Dirac Suite whereas for the DPR-16, it will likely have to be purchased on a per module basis (chi-ching chi-ching). The webpage for the DPR-16 indicates: "Hyperion also supports modular Dirac-licensed software extensions—such as Limited or Full Bandwidth Room Correction, Bass Control, and Active Room Treatment.".

Dante or AES67 is expensive to implement. If you buy speakers with Dante/AES67 connectivity, typically they're more expensive than traditional speakers with crossover networks even when you consider the component reduction (crossover/DAC/amp) from a traditional audio chain. For Dante/AES67 speakers those components just pile up inside the speaker in multiples, i.e. a DSP board plus a DAC/amplifier combo for each driver, this quickly adds up. Furthermore, you have no control over the selection and specs of the DAC and amplifier technology used in a Dante/AES67 equipped speaker. Trying to add DIY Dante/AES67 to your own speakers by guttting out the crossover and replacing it with a DSP based crossover board with multiple outputs suitable for those affordable high-performance DACs that Amir tests and adding a DAC/amp for each speaker driver also quickly adds up. I've searched and it's hard to find affordable DSP crossover boards with the desired multiple digital outputs, they're often only two-way designs and they usually have an I2S interface, so add an extra I2S to SPDI/F module to feed the DAC.

Another miss for the DPR-16 is the lack of USB audio playback for those who want it. Audio playback other than through one SPDI/F jack or one Toslink jack and HDMI is all network based with Dante/AES67. And let's not forget a complete lack of any analog input whatsoever; sorry vinyl lovers.

One thing that I find surprising and amusing for the Hyperion APR-16 ($8K), its big brother that has 16 analog balanced outputs with ESS Sabre ES9039QTM DACs, is the owner manual. A real lightweight at only 36 pages. Are you kidding me?

Thank you - that was incredibly helpful!

 

[dsd4life]

Price will be the biggest issue, $4K for the DPR-16 vs $3500 for the Tide-16. The Tide 16 includes the whole Dirac Suite whereas for the DPR-16, it will likely have to be purchased on a per module basis (chi-ching chi-ching). The webpage for the DPR-16 indicates: "Hyperion also supports modular Dirac-licensed software extensions—such as Limited or Full Bandwidth Room Correction, Bass Control, and Active Room Treatment.".

Dante or AES67 is expensive to implement. If you buy speakers with Dante/AES67 connectivity, typically they're more expensive than traditional speakers with crossover networks even when you consider the component reduction (crossover/DAC/amp) from a traditional audio chain. For Dante/AES67 speakers those components just pile up inside the speaker in multiples, i.e. a DSP board plus a DAC/amplifier combo for each driver, this quickly adds up. Furthermore, you have no control over the selection and specs of the DAC and amplifier technology used in a Dante/AES67 equipped speaker. Trying to add DIY Dante/AES67 to your own speakers by guttting out the crossover and replacing it with a DSP based crossover board with multiple outputs suitable for those affordable high-performance DACs that Amir tests and adding a DAC/amp for each speaker driver also quickly adds up. I've searched and it's hard to find affordable DSP crossover boards with the desired multiple digital outputs, they're often only two-way designs and they usually have an I2S interface, so add an extra I2S to SPDI/F module to feed the DAC.

Another miss for the DPR-16 is the lack of USB audio playback for those who want it. Audio playback other than through one SPDI/F jack or one Toslink jack and HDMI is all network based with Dante/AES67. And let's not forget a complete lack of any analog input whatsoever; sorry vinyl lovers.

One thing that I find surprising and amusing for the Hyperion APR-16 ($8K), its big brother that has 16 analog balanced outputs with ESS Sabre ES9039QTM DACs, is the owner manual. A real lightweight at only 36 pages. Are you kidding me?

Who said you need Dante to your existing speakers.

You need a Dante compatible digital volume control multichannel DAC that outputs XLR pre outs intended for amplifiers is the best way to handle Dante at this time.

 

[pat355]

Who said you need Dante to your existing speakers.

You need a Dante compatible digital volume control multichannel DAC that outputs XLR pre outs intended for amplifiers is the best way to handle Dante at this time.

what piece of hardware can do this?

 

[Highfidelity]

I wouldn’t be surprised if MiniDSP launches a Dante and AES/EBU all digital box like the DPR-16 next. They clearly get it with the new HT Flex with eARC in and Dante out. The world just needs proper Dante input DAC/amps. With ES9039pro dacs and Purifi 1ET6525SA amps. I would launch mine to the retail market, but have no interest in the retail market. If any other manufacturer is intelligent to see the opportunity thank me later.

 

[Highfidelity]

Even if MiniDSP made a Dante input version of the Amp 8 with the same DACs as the Tide it would be a big hit. It could pair with both the Tide Digital and their HT Flex Dante. And those Icepower 300A2 modules and Icepower supply are solid performers. Solid build quality and performance.

I was one of the beta testers of those modules pre-release in 2019

 

[Highfidelity]

Notable changes to the 300A2 post-release. Who can spot them?

 

[Oddball]

I don’t have a basic AVR, instead coming from the infamous Emotiva XMC2. My amplifiers are ATI6000 (front 3) and ATI4000 (surrounds).

The AV20 has a higher SINAD? That may make my choice easier since it’s cheaper. I’ve never heard the F328Be but I prefer the salon2 with its overbuilt cabinet, 4-way design and sculpted baffle. It’s more of a true full range speaker with tremendous output. It’s a very good all around speaker with no glaring weaknesses. The bass is so good that I forget to turn the sub on at times. I definitely made a mistake getting the salon2 and the Gothams though. I could have went less one way or another and still have equally good bass.

I started with the F208 which retailed for $5000, so the fact that the F328Be is over $17k with the same cabinet, I just couldn’t do it. It was weird when I got the F228Be…double the MSRP but it felt like I had the same speaker.

Lol, too much is still never enough. Only one life to live and bragging rights are just extra.

But yeah - sometimes one can get away with less overkill.