miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

[Mort]

Mee . Quite the opposite - I run old Rotels at 80 SINAD for all my surrounds and happy as any pig in the pond running 100dB or more. I just like the features and stability of the AV10. Think of it directing the whole band or 19 speakers. That is a tall task regardless of SINAD.

I think I saw those the other day in a photo. Impressive! I'm not gonna lie, I consider the high SINAD of MiniDSP products to be a feature even if I can't hear the difference.

 

[EWL5]

Mee . Quite the opposite - I run old Rotels at 80 SINAD for all my surrounds and happy as any pig in the pond running 100dB or more. I just like the features and stability of the AV10. Think of it directing the whole band or 19 speakers. That is a tall task regardless of SINAD.

I have an older Rotel RSX-1067 AVR I was hoping to use as an external amp but some say is a bad idea...

 

[peng]

What I don't (want) to understand is at what point you would really want that if not a reviewer for one of most prestigious and influential publications? My stereo seems fine with 107dB SINAD pre-amp and Bryston 4BSST2 300W into 8 ohm. Not to mention the speakers that are - called Divas for a reason. But even better with 4 subs supporting and ART engaged.

I think Amir said something about 115 dB. To me, even 70 dB is good as long as it is not dominated by noise and is the minimum within the audio band, and is not below that from 50 mV (25 mV would be nice but..) to 4 V balanced. So, for a single number I would feel more comfortable with 105 dB, but I would avoid looking at a single point SINAD, but the numbers shown in the following graphs. People like to say/remind that it's not SINAD but noise, to me SINAD already include noise so if it is 70 dB, even if that's all noise, I am okay with that, but that's my bottom line, and I think 80-85 dB can be expected, from the likes of AV10,20, and the Tide for sure.

 

[Oddball]

I think I saw those the other day in a photo. Impressive! I'm not gonna lie, I consider the high SINAD of MiniDSP products to be a feature even if I can't hear the difference.

It is definitively excellence what we need to chase. But 15 years ago the landscape was different. I ended up with what I got and will probably take another 10 years to wear it out.

But even this site was merciful to the amps, not so long ago. "Recommended" if a high bar.

Rotel RB-1070 Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Rotel RB-1070 stereo power amplifier. It was released in early 2000. Can't find the cost then but I see it used for around $400 to $500. I have always found Rotels to be most attractively designed power amplifiers. One look at that front panel...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Oddball]

I think Amir said something about 115 dB. To me, even 70 dB is good as long as it is not dominated by noise and is the minimum within the audio band, and is not below that from 50 mV (25 mV would be nice but..) to 4 V balanced. So, for a single number I would feel more comfortable with 105 dB, but I would avoid looking at a single point SINAD, but the numbers shown in the following graphs. People like to say/remind that it's not SINAD but noise, to me SINAD already include noise so if it is 70 dB, even if that's all noise, I am okay with that, but that's my bottom line, and I think 80-85 dB can be expected, from the likes of AV10,20, and the Tide for sure.




View attachment 509478View attachment 509479

Just get one and be done with it. Or if you don't need so many channels I would seriously recommend HTP-1. Just re-watching Gangs of New York and even with +12dB curve bass just not happening. I can imagine this soundtrack would benefit greatly from BEQ.

 

[Lsc]

I would still choose AV10 as at one point might go 9.4.6. AV-20 was not bench measured to the best of my knowledge but per Marantz had a bit of an edge in SINAD which is not surprising as newer design and implementation. Obviously that is not audible but it is out there. Otherwise, the parts in AV10 or AV20 might be for longevity as opposed to audible differences, if any. At least I can't say that I hear capacitors whispering to me.

Salon 2 and F328 are close from what I gather. One is old design and one new. With slim margin of error people chose 328s. I would not be surprised that Salon 2 is slightly better than 228s. Should play louder and with more confidence with high SPL than smaller 228. Did not hear the comparison alive, so just answer that AI could provide (OK, perhaps a bit better )

I would also say that you might be a bit disappointed going from basic AVR as 3800H to AV10 if the upgrade is not feature diven, or your are exploring a hight SPL system. At 75db average they will not sound that different, provided that small AVR can adequately drive your speakers.

I don’t have a basic AVR, instead coming from the infamous Emotiva XMC2. My amplifiers are ATI6000 (front 3) and ATI4000 (surrounds).

The AV20 has a higher SINAD? That may make my choice easier since it’s cheaper. I’ve never heard the F328Be but I prefer the salon2 with its overbuilt cabinet, 4-way design and sculpted baffle. It’s more of a true full range speaker with tremendous output. It’s a very good all around speaker with no glaring weaknesses. The bass is so good that I forget to turn the sub on at times. I definitely made a mistake getting the salon2 and the Gothams though. I could have went less one way or another and still have equally good bass.

I started with the F208 which retailed for $5000, so the fact that the F328Be is over $17k with the same cabinet, I just couldn’t do it. It was weird when I got the F228Be…double the MSRP but it felt like I had the same speaker.

 

[thcdru2k]

I can see this potentially leading to a lot of confusion due to custom routing and different systems. It's not like a typical pre-pro where Front L is labeled. You can have any input 1-16 be front L, and you can route that to any output 1-16. So now you will have Windows/Mac OS player channel map --> USB channel numbering --> miniDSP routing matrix mapping --> physical output assignment. I already have a headache.

 

[Highfidelity]

I haven’t read this entire thread to see if someone mentioned this. But I see that’s there’s only 3 HDMI inputs and they’re limited to 2.0. The output doubles as eARC, but most TV’s won’t send DTS or DTSx over eARC from the source player. So you’re limited to using those 3x 2.0 ports to take advantage of DTS let alone DTSx. And most multichannel audio recordings in high res are in DTS.

So I guess PS5 direct to TV for 120hz and VRR, then out to Tide via eARC. And when we want to play our high res multichannel DTS rips we swap the HDMI cable manually from the eARC output on the Tide to one of the HDMI inputs on the TV. Seems like a PITA.

 

[Lsc]

I haven’t read this entire thread to see if someone mentioned this. But I see that’s there’s only 3 HDMI inputs and they’re limited to 2.0. The output doubles as eARC, but most TV’s won’t send DTS or DTSx over eARC from the source player. So you’re limited to using those 3x 2.0 ports to take advantage of DTS let alone DTSx. And most multichannel audio recordings in high res are in DTS.

So I guess PS5 direct to TV for 120hz and VRR, then out to Tide via eARC. And when we want to play our high res multichannel DTS rips we swap the HDMI cable manually from the eARC output on the Tide to one of the HDMI inputs on the TV. Seems like a PITA.

Yes if your only disc source is a PS5 it would be a pain.

 

[thcdru2k]

I haven’t read this entire thread to see if someone mentioned this. But I see that’s there’s only 3 HDMI inputs and they’re limited to 2.0. The output doubles as eARC, but most TV’s won’t send DTS or DTSx over eARC from the source player. So you’re limited to using those 3x 2.0 ports to take advantage of DTS let alone DTSx. And most multichannel audio recordings in high res are in DTS.

So I guess PS5 direct to TV for 120hz and VRR, then out to Tide via eARC. And when we want to play our high res multichannel DTS rips we swap the HDMI cable manually from the eARC output on the Tide to one of the HDMI inputs on the TV. Seems like a PITA.

I believe miniDSP addressed this in their FAQ. They recommend 8k VRROOM for these edge cases. It will be a drop down menu add-on just like UMIK-2.

 

[thcdru2k]

I think of Marantz AV10 / Monolith HTP-1 as HDMI hubs that also do DSP. The Tide 16 is a 16-ch DSP/router that includes HDMI mainly to ingest/bridge audio; if you need HDMI 2.1 you will need an upstream HDMI front-end. It is a true 16x16 digital audio matrix. Any decoded channel can be sent to any output, multiple outputs, or nowhere at all. You can send center to 3 speakers, you can send LFE to 4 different subs with different filters/delays, you could send surround L to a height speaker if you wanted, you can create virtual speakers from sums of other speakers. You can treat every sub as an independent output, you can feed each sub different channel blends, you can apply different crossovers per sub, you can build your own bass management topology. You can have speaker arrays like having 2 center speakers like center reinforcement.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

And most multichannel audio recordings in high res are in DTS.

Do you have a reference for that?

 

[Highfidelity]

Do you have a reference for that?

You would probably know best. I don’t have a multichannel collection like yours. I was basing this on 5.1 and 7.1 DTS in high res 24/96 and 24/192 without object channels. I know over the last 6-7 years most of the industry has turned to Atmos. But all of those albums are 24/48.

Out of all the multi-channel 24/96 and 24/192 albums in your personal collection, what’s the ratio of DTS to Dolby True HD?

I asked Grok and it said this:

In lists of ~300–500 documented hi-res surround music Blu-rays (excluding pure Atmos streaming or low-res), DTS-HD MA appears in the majority of dedicated hi-res 5.1/7.1 music tracks at 24/96 (and occasional 24/192 for 5.1). Dolby TrueHD is more common when Atmos is involved, but for strict hi-res PCM-equivalent non-Atmos or legacy-style surround, DTS leads.


• Overall Blu-ray lossless audio stats (mostly movies, but indicative) show DTS-HD MA far outnumbering TrueHD historically (e.g., older tallies like ~6800 vs ~1400), and music follows a similar but less extreme split due to Atmos shifting some toward Dolby.

 

[jam]

You would probably know best. I don’t have a multichannel collection like yours. I was basing this on 5.1 and 7.1 DTS in high res 24/96 and 24/192 without object channels. I know over the last 6-7 years most of the industry has turned to Atmos. But all of those albums are 24/48.

Out of all the multi-channel 24/96 and 24/192 albums in your personal collection, what’s the ratio of DTS to Dolby True HD?

I asked Grok and it said this:

In lists of ~300–500 documented hi-res surround music Blu-rays (excluding pure Atmos streaming or low-res), DTS-HD MA appears in the majority of dedicated hi-res 5.1/7.1 music tracks at 24/96 (and occasional 24/192 for 5.1). Dolby TrueHD is more common when Atmos is involved, but for strict hi-res PCM-equivalent non-Atmos or legacy-style surround, DTS leads.


• Overall Blu-ray lossless audio stats (mostly movies, but indicative) show DTS-HD MA far outnumbering TrueHD historically (e.g., older tallies like ~6800 vs ~1400), and music follows a similar but less extreme split due to Atmos shifting some toward Dolby.

What about the 9800 multichannel releases available on SACD and the 1500 multichannel DSD files available for download?
And let's not forget about the circa 800 multichannel releases on DVD-Audio.
You can get those answers from Grok too. A great website to search for all high-resolution releases across all disc formats is HRAudio.net, formerly sa-cd.net. They've been cataloging high-resolution releases for over 15 years.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

You would probably know best.

I don't because almost all the dts/Dolby tracks that I downloaded or ripped were decoded and stored as PCM. I find only 555 DTS tracks out of about 50,000.

 

[Highfidelity]

What about the 9800 multichannel releases available on SACD and the 1500 multichannel DSD files available for download?
And let's not forget about the circa 800 multichannel releases on DVD-Audio.
You can get those answers from Grok too. A great website to search for all high-resolution releases across all disc formats is HRAudio.net, formerly sa-cd.net. They've been cataloging high-resolution releases for over 15 years.

Yeah I know there’s lots of those.

 

[Highfidelity]

I don't because almost all the dts/Dolby tracks that I downloaded or ripped were decoded and stored as PCM. I find only 555 DTS tracks out of about 50,000.

Ok so then you’re not actually sending a bitstream to the AVP to decode them then. As for new multichannel, DTS is almost dead anyways. They shifted focus to car audio algorithms. I personally don’t care about it. Many of your rips were probably SACD’s transcoded to PCM.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Ok so then you’re not actually sending a bitstream to the AVP to decode them then.

Of course. I do not own an AVP. I suspect that almost all the originally dts material was from DVDs.

Many of your rips were probably SACD’s transcoded to PCM.

Nope. Those are DSF.

 

[jhaider]

Not sure about active crossovers, but can't imagine anything that active as ART in that area.

On a Storm you can actively multi amp speakers by assigning multiple channels to a group and applying slopes and EQ to each. That’s a capability that HTP-1, to say nothing of simpler devices such as D+M, offer.

As to the personal support, I never fired even one email to D&M support as was not needed. AV10 just tends to do what it is supposed to.

It’s also a much more limited functionality box. But the best thing by far about D+M is they (for now at least, let’s see what happens in their Samsung era) work reliably.

 

[pat355]

I'm just wondering why there is so much hype about the Tide16 and very little chatter about the upcoming Hyperion DPR-16? I do understand the use cases are different but I'm still surprised that the latter seems to be getting very little attention...interested in your views on the reason why that's the case.