I thought that HTP-1 already killed Storm up to 16 channels at similar $4K price. Or not?
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miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD
I would say no, for those who want to use the same one box for both HT and music listening and insist on believing that AVP/AVR are not suited for their so called serious music listening. There is some truth to that claim because there is indeed a point of diminishing return beyond a certain point that there is no audible benefits to using a separate system for music in the same room with the same speakers/placements, especially if using a separate system precludes the use of REQ/C. I am not sure if the HTP-1 is at that point of diminishing return based on specs and measurements, but the Tide 16, while not tested on ASR, based on their own specs and measurements, I would think that it will do well for use as a one box solution (for both HT and music). It (HTP-1) might have enough to kill a 16 channel Storm though.
Sorry but not following. How is Storm then above that point - thought specs and measurements are similar for Storm 16 and HTP-1, as well as most of the features with Dirac engaged? Storm has its own advanced bass routing ($2K last I checked) with PEQ but not sure how useful that is with ART onboard.
Not commenting on integration of separate 2-channel subsystem. That is a dicy topic.
Good question, and thanks, obviously I wasn't clear about this. I meant neither one is above that point, based on ASR measurements. It is for me, but likely not to those (example: people who use HT bypass, just so they could use their integrated amps for music listening) who wish to compare HT devices to separate 2 channel systems.
welwynnick
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I think the argument in favour of the Storm is that it has more DSP power than other AVPs.
From various ASR threads, I believe the Storms can support up to 3076 filter taps, and the Monoprice up to 1024.
The argument in favour of the HTP-1 is that it has both good functionality and decent audio performance. This is the HTP-1 and ISP-16 respectively.
To my eyes the Monoprice looks rather better than the Storm (or the Trinnov or Lyngdorf for that matter). GXAlan managed to squeeze a bit more out of the HTP-1:
The miniDSP appears to be better still, but what we don't know is how it's DSP capability compares to the Storm.
I disagree with the bolded portion above as the video portion of the Tide16 is not SOTA because it's not fully HDMI 2.1 compliant.
Understanding HDMI 2.1 vs 2.0 on Tide16
This is a great topic—and one that really deserves a deeper explanation, which is why we put together this FAQ. Since the launch of Tide16, one of the most common questions has been: “Why didn’t you include an 8K HDMI 2.1 module? You already had...
support.minidsp.com
Right, but did not hear that HTP-1 would have filter limitation as it supports "only" 16 channels.
Storm needs more filters due to higher channel count - and probably to distinguish themselves. However, I don't think that filter taps and levels of e.g. D&M support compare squarely. D&M has ability to cross support 96 groups including in-group support. From the Storm video I heard number of 500 on comparable basis, which is obviously generously much more, but they also note that customers might run out of filters.
D&M is limited in that respect so when you run 9.4.4, you run out of filters. Practically, I don't really see that this limitation would be meaningful though. One has to choose what supports what, but support levels are still more than meaningful. I have no idea if higher levels of support would sound better as can't test that, but graphs and experience are both immaculate in the ART range at the current level.
I think people have this strange idea of more support the better. Theoretically potentially true, but practically you get extreme levels of support even if you don't support anything with everything, if you choose the right support groups. And actually some members decided to back off some support despite filter availability as it did not seem to produce additional benefit. Sometimes more is less is also a good approach. Having all the speakers support all others is too busy so, theoretically (as the opposite argument) also not that great. Think of 24 channel system.
Once handed over to Dirac Live, things become choppy. Much more to do there. IMO hey nailed ART but more to do on the basic stuff.
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It's easier than integrating a separate multichannel subsystem.
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“Killed,” no. But with ART nullifying one of the two big advantages Storm had (superior bass management flexibility), then unless you’re using the device to create active crossovers or you need the personal support that comes as part of a five figure AVP…there’s not a massive advantage to Storm at this point. Well I think the other advantage of Storm may be how it handles wides, maybe. Not an issue for me so never looked.
In any event, anyone who thinks HTP-1’s analog performance isn’t “good enough” spends way too much time reading graphs and not enough time carefully listening. When I reviewed the Bryston SP4 variant of StormAudio Dr. David Rich was very disappointed by the DAC chip they used. I don’t remember what it was, but it was an older model that wasn’t particularly high-performance by today’s standards and I don’t think it was the company’s flagship when new, either. As we discussed it in more detail, he conceded that it would pass ABX. I understand his position, and think it makes sense, that super expensive audio stuff should use elite parts. But as a practical, audible matter it’s all a who-cares-whatever.
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"Dicy" means dicy for most. And the word was specifically meant for anticipating that your comment would follow
. What you do is beyond most, and it's still "dicy" (slang word, but hey, at least something I can learn from by teen daughter).What I don't (want) to understand is at what point you would really want that if not a reviewer for one of most prestigious and influential publications? My stereo seems fine with 107dB SINAD pre-amp and Bryston 4BSST2 300W into 8 ohm. Not to mention the speakers that are - called Divas for a reason. But even better with 4 subs supporting and ART engaged.
That is agreeable to a point only. I paid for the HDMI 2.1 but never used it so far, the extra dollars I spent, left in the bank account instead, would still be making money daily. The partially compliant thing of the Tide 16 isn't a bad thing for me, and certainly won't deter me from buying it sooner or later. Believe it or not, HDMI 2.1 is really the last thing I might worry about, my PS4 has been collecting dust for years and have no intention to replace it with something that benefits from 2.1. If I procrastinate replacing my AVM70, it would be because I feel too lazy to to disconnect the spaghetti junctions of wires at the back, vacuum cleaning for an hour and then another hour reconnecting, then the setup, and then the DLBC/ART calibration, and the tweaking after, getting too old for that stuff lol..I disagree with the bolded portion above as the video portion of the Tide16 is not SOTA because it's not fully HDMI 2.1 compliant.
Understanding HDMI 2.1 vs 2.0 on Tide16
This is a great topic—and one that really deserves a deeper explanation, which is why we put together this FAQ. Since the launch of Tide16, one of the most common questions has been: “Why didn’t you include an 8K HDMI 2.1 module? You already had...
One would need to think twice (better to repeat for another round or two though) to use any advance bass management - either Storm that is superior or D&M that is inferior, as opposed to ART. Not sure about active crossovers, but can't imagine anything that active as ART in that area. Trinnov is a bit of a different story - all available but at the cost of wave forming being quite inflexible as to the placement of subs.
As to the personal support, I never fired even one email to D&M support as was not needed. AV10 just tends to do what it is supposed to. But yeah, some people still use Vertu phones so they can horass the customer support with every whim they have.
Simple. I have a large library of music files in a wide variety of formats, resolutions and channels and it needs to be (and is) best managed with PC/Mac/Linux apps. I'm looking forward to these new boxes from miniDSP, Trinnov, Hyperion to help make life easier. Multichannel USB would be useful but it is uncommon.
And, fwiw, video is not a concern.
Right - HDMI 2.2 is the thing but not even sure how that works with DV 2.0? Not that I desire any of them, but we will be sold products and upgrades along those lines as well.
It was actually refreshing to see that LG dropped 8K support. Nothing like that has any commercial use. But seems like "independent" bodies in the industry are still driving the upgrade "progress". Gamers and early adopters might follow. Old dogs are on the sideline enjoying their well deserved DV and 2.0 benefits
. Can't sell me what I don't want - and I do know what I want.Oddball you have the AV10, that’s a big difference than the processors that the rest of us like me have."Dicy" means dicy for most. And the word was specifically meant for anticipating that your comment would follow
What I don't (want) to understand is at what point you would really want that if not a reviewer for one of most prestigious and influential publications? My stereo seems fine with 107dB SINAD pre-amp and Bryston 4BSST2 300W into 8 ohm. Not to mention the speakers that are - called Divas for a reason. But even better with 4 subs supporting and ART engaged.
If the AV20 was out when you got the AV10, which one would you have chosen? Whatever that 4 layer vs 2 layer deal is between the AV10 and AV20 is making me thinking of just getting the 10 so I can sell my 2 ch preamp. I saw a YouTube video where the sound quality of the AV10 was described to be “slightly” better than the 20. It’s that “slightly” better performance going thru the 2 channel preamp path in my case, that makes all the difference.
My salon2 was “slightly” better than the F228Be that I had before. We are talking small margins here that’s “significant” enough. Now if you tell me that this speaker cable is slightly better, id say that’s fine, I’m good with slightly worse
.My 3800 came out in 2022 and is fully HDMI 2.1 compliant. It's a hard pill to swallow for anyone paying so much in 2026 to expect it and not get it. I understand the audiophiles in the thread won't give a rat's @ss about the video portion but I didn't think your statement about the Tide16 covering "home theater" was fair. It could very well fool people into comparing against more expensive AVPs where HDMI 2.1 at a minimum is expected!
I would still choose AV10 as at one point might go 9.4.6. AV-20 was not bench measured to the best of my knowledge but per Marantz had a bit of an edge in SINAD which is not surprising as newer design and implementation. Obviously that is not audible but it is out there. Otherwise, the parts in AV10 or AV20 might be for longevity as opposed to audible differences, if any. At least I can't say that I hear capacitors whispering to me.Oddball you have the AV10, that’s a big difference than the processors that the rest of us like me have.
If the AV20 was out when you got the AV10, which one would you have chosen? Whatever that 4 layer vs 2 layer deal is between the AV10 and AV20 is making me thinking of just getting the 10 so I can sell my 2 ch preamp. I saw a YouTube video where the sound quality of the AV10 was described to be “slightly” better than the 20. It’s that “slightly” better performance going thru the 2 channel preamp path in my case, that makes all the difference.
My salon2 was “slightly” better than the F228Be that I had before. We are talking small margins here that’s “significant” enough. Now if you tell me that this speaker cable is slightly better, id say that’s fine, I’m good with slightly worse
Salon 2 and F328 are close from what I gather. One is old design and one new. With slim margin of error people chose 328s. I would not be surprised that Salon 2 is slightly better than 228s. Should play louder and with more confidence with high SPL than smaller 228. Did not hear the comparison alive, so just answer that AI could provide (OK, perhaps a bit better
)I would also say that you might be a bit disappointed going from basic AVR as 3800H to AV10 if the upgrade is not feature diven, or your are exploring a hight SPL system. At 75db average they will not sound that different, provided that small AVR can adequately drive your speakers.
masterhw
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whatever difference the PCB layers make, if any, does not seem to appear in measurements between these two. one would expect additional channel isolation to most directly impact the noise floor and SINAD, but from Marantz’s own measurements the AV20 is not disadvantaged against the AV10 there. thus both AVs are already so quiet and well designed that this specific design feature is of minimal benefit.
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You might have Sinad Chasing Shaming Syndrome
Mee
. Quite the opposite - I run old Rotels at 80 SINAD for all my surrounds and happy as any pig in the pond running 100dB or more. I just like the features and stability of the AV10. Think of it directing the whole band or 19 speakers. That is a tall task regardless of SINAD.