miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

[peng]

I also got a bit tripped up by their comment, but it is true that if using solely digital volume control then the DAC noise level would be fairly fixed regardless of whether the DAC is at quiet output or loud. If the noise is fixed then turning down the signal would bring the two closer together, making the noise/hiss audible after 26dB of amplification.
Analog volume control is usually preferable for quality for this reason, it allows the signal at time of creation to put maximum distance between itself and the noise floor, where you then bring both down to the desired level afterward. AVRs and some AVPs do this, block diagrams (when published) will indicate.

Ironically after doing some of the napkin math on ideal gain staging (@mdsimon2 did this above, great work!) I ended up warmer on AVRs. I hate to come to the conclusion that using high performing gear like miniDSP and Hypex amps can result in worse performance somehow, but I can’t see a way to very easily manage analog volume control in these types of setups.

Keel in mind too, the Tide 16’s DR is more like 127 dB.

My projected >115 dB is SINAD (based on spec of 118 dB), not DNR.

 

[101geo]

What reliability issue? I have a KJF amp with four NC252MP modules, and after four years it’s still humming along nicely.

Humming you say???

 

[popej]

My projected >115 dB is SINAD (based on spec of 118 dB), not DNR.

THD would probably decrease with lower volume, so loss of SINAD would be less then decrease of volume. THD shouldn't be a problem anyway. SINAD seems to be a wrong parameter to analyze, we should start with noise level.

 

[thcdru2k]

I'm not really sure an 8 channel version makes sense anyways. The real benefit of Tide16 is subwoofer integration. So even if you had a basic 5.2 setup; you are using 7 channels already. DSP is overkill if you are just integrating a single sub. Atmos channels usually create a better audible improvement than a 3rd sub in a lot of rooms; and now if you factor in how Dirac ART uses bed/height/subs to cancel first reflections I think more than not the next logical transition would be 5.2.2 which is 9 channels. Even if you went four subs that is 5.4 (still need more than 8 channels).

 

[thcdru2k]

Seems like an amazing device, Umik microphone included, Dirac included.
I only have my shield connected and an audio streamer, so three HDMI is enough. How is the build quality from miniDSP? Are the other devices they have on the market reliable?
Do they have good software or buggy software?

I have 2x4 HD and Flex HTx... extremely reliable. The only risk is just be careful when updating firmware. One time I accidently applied my UMIK-2 firmware update for Flex HTx. They have no safeguards against that. Somehow after hard reset; I was able to get my Flex HTx working but I'm pretty sure support would have sent me a firmware or just told me to send it in for repair if needed.

 

[markus]

Humming you say???

Humming as in no hum – you know what I mean

 

[peng]

THD would probably decrease with lower volume, so loss of SINAD would be less then decrease of volume. THD shouldn't be a problem anyway. SINAD seems to be a wrong parameter to analyze, we should start with noise level.

I agree in general, and people often say that on ASR, almost too often lol, but I also don't believe it is a black and white thing. Somewhat like the power, voltage and current specs for power amps, we should look at all of them, not just Power/watts. For preamp/dac, I would like to look at distortions, noise (instead of SINAD), SNR and DNR, some of them are of course related.

 

[peng]

I'm not really sure an 8 channel version makes sense anyways. The real benefit of Tide16 is subwoofer integration. So even if you had a basic 5.2 setup; you are using 7 channels already. DSP is overkill if you are just integrating a single sub. Atmos channels usually create a better audible improvement than a 3rd sub in a lot of rooms; and now if you factor in how Dirac ART uses bed/height/subs to cancel first reflections I think more than not the next logical transition would be 5.2.2 which is 9 channels. Even if you went four subs that is 5.4 (still need more than 8 channels).

There are people crazy enough to use such a device to run 2.1, 2.2 etc. for their own reasons.

 

[101geo]

Humming as in no hum – you know what I mean

I do indeed, sorry, forgot the smiley.

 

[PGAMiami]

There are people crazy enoughto use such a device to run 2.1, 2.2 etc. for their own reasons.

I’ve been waiting for product like Tide16 and APR-16 for years, that performs like a good desk top DAC, has Dirac ART and Dolby decoding. In the interim I’m using Denon 4800 in prepro mode. The Denon has impressed me from the get go for TV. But the addition of ART is really a game changer. And now with 3 subs, soon to be 4, even for 2 ch stereo I find I get more enjoyment from the Denon with ART than from my RME DAC with Roon convolution. So I don’t think it’s so crazy that someone that is a stereo buff may want a 2.x system with ART.

 

[AudioJester]

There are people crazy enoughto use such a device to run 2.1, 2.2 etc. for their own reasons.

Not crazy.
Bass performance is equated to 30% of speaker performance, EQ/DSP is mandatory to get a good bass result in virtually all rooms. ART is achieving results not previously possible even with 2.0, 2.1 or 2.2 systems. Maybe in time people will even add surrounds purely as support speakers, might even see specifically designed support surrounds for ART.

MiniDSP has the vision to tap into this. The Tide16 looks like a brilliant bit of kit

 

[PGAMiami]

Not crazy.
Bass performance is equated to 30% of speaker performance, EQ/DSP is mandatory to get a good bass result in virtually all rooms. ART is achieving results not previously possible even with 2.0, 2.1 or 2.2 systems. Maybe in time people will even add surrounds purely as support speakers, might even see specifically designed support surrounds for ART.

MiniDSP has the vision to tap into this. The Tide16 looks like a brilliant bit of kit

My interest in Dirac ART and adding subs was entirely about improving not increasing the bass in my room. My TAD R1s -3db point in my room is 17hz, and they can do this at high SPL and low distortion. But below the Schroeder frequency the room dominates, not the speaker. ART with 3 subs has been transformational for bass response, even beyond what was possible with 60,000 tap Audiolense convolution filters on the TADs by themselves.

 

[dsd4life]

Multichannel music.

I am using that exact configuration.

You want to truncate frequency from multichannel DSD and or LPCM and or TrueHD Atmos @ 24 bit / 192 khz? Dirac embedded in AVR is a mess right now downsampling everything to 48 khz.

The measurements in Dirac Live does not look as expected. For example, there is a very prominent dip in the high frequency range. Why is this? | Dirac Live

The recommended sample rate for the measurement process is 44.1 KHz or 48KHz. If for example performing the measurements at 192 kHz or 96KHz, the high frequency range will not be reflected properly.Go to the "Audio Settings" of the Dirac Live Processor software, and change the "Sample rate"...

helpdesk.dirac.com

Dirac can support high frequency on the PC with 2 channel. Wish Denon / Marantz, Onkyo, MiniDSP got their act together for high frequency Dirac sampling.

 

[levimax]

Dirac can support high frequency on the PC with 2 channel. Wish Denon / Marantz, Onkyo, MiniDSP got their act together for high frequency Dirac sampling.

I have the PC version of DIRAC live / DLBC and I have to use 44.1 or 48 sampling for measurements or the HF will be way off (low). Not sure why there would be any concern about using 48 KHz sampling for any purpose as you cant hear frequencies anywhere near 24 Khz and the lower sampling rates saves a lot of processing power.

 

[kyuu]

You want to truncate frequency from multichannel DSD and or LPCM and or TrueHD Atmos @ 24 bit / 192 khz? Dirac embedded in AVR is a mess right now downsampling everything to 48 khz.

It really just isn't something to be concerned about.

 

[PGAMiami]

You want to truncate frequency from multichannel DSD and or LPCM and or TrueHD Atmos @ 24 bit / 192 khz? Dirac embedded in AVR is a mess right now downsampling everything to 48 khz.

The measurements in Dirac Live does not look as expected. For example, there is a very prominent dip in the high frequency range. Why is this? | Dirac Live

The recommended sample rate for the measurement process is 44.1 KHz or 48KHz. If for example performing the measurements at 192 kHz or 96KHz, the high frequency range will not be reflected properly.Go to the "Audio Settings" of the Dirac Live Processor software, and change the "Sample rate"...

helpdesk.dirac.com

Dirac can support high frequency on the PC with 2 channel. Wish Denon / Marantz, Onkyo, MiniDSP got their act together for high frequency Dirac sampling.

As long as the sample rate conversion is done correctly, everything should be fine at 48khz. Almost all video is that anyway. For audio I’ve been using Roon and having it convert everything to 48khz. Roon has several algorithms to choose from. It’s as perfect as it could be.

 

[Lsc]

My interest in Dirac ART and adding subs was entirely about improving not increasing the bass in my room. My TAD R1s -3db point in my room is 17hz, and they can do this at high SPL and low distortion. But below the Schroeder frequency the room dominates, not the speaker. ART with 3 subs has been transformational for bass response, even beyond what was possible with 60,000 tap Audiolense convolution filters on the TADs by themselves.

I’m more curious than anything else. I wonder how Dirac ART will improve the bass in my room for 2 channel when it’s already so good. I believe in the philosophy…obviously you have experienced it. Soon can’t come fast enough.

Unfortunately I can’t afford the Wilson’s in this picture but I was playing the tracks from this YouTube video and wow, there is some good bass.

 

[dsd4life]

I’m more curious than anything else. I wonder how Dirac ART will improve the bass in my room for 2 channel when it’s already so good. I believe in the philosophy…obviously you have experienced it. Soon can’t come fast enough.

Unfortunately I can’t afford the Wilson’s in this picture but I was playing the tracks from this YouTube video and wow, there is some good bass.

You want to ruin these magnificent systems with some ARM variant chip and a $80 microphone?

 

[kyuu]

You want to ruin these magnificent systems with some ARM variant chip and a $80 microphone?

 

[markus]

You want to ruin these magnificent systems with some ARM variant chip and a $80 microphone?

You will be surprised how good these "magnificent" systems will sound after you "ruined" them with "some ARM variant chip and a $80 microphone"