miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

[Mort]

The tariffs will put it closer in price to the mainstream AVPs, lure in those folks, and disappoint them because they haven't done the research.
We already see the mainstreamers (like me) entering the thread and at least be curious about the product. Having Dirac ART included is the ultimate "honeypot"!

I doubt mainstream folks will ever even hear of this device.

 

[PristineSound]

It is not out of nowhere.

Exactly my point, out of nowhere.

 

[Mort]

A word of caution about speculation from minidsp.

 

[popej]

I am not sure if anyone has done or seen measurements that verified the 20-30 dB headroom loss you referred to.

It is not a loss, rather assigned range for volume regulation. At least this is, how I imagine the use of the device. I would set power amps gain for maximum sound level I could use, but then I probably would listen at lower level. Which means not full digital level but 20-30dB less.

 

[EWL5]

I doubt mainstream folks will ever even hear of this device.

Folks are already comparing the Tide16 to the AV20 (a full-fledged AVP) or planning to hook up to their PS5/PC (coming from a 4800). Don't look now, but they're already here!

 

[peng]

the neumann speakers have a ground switch that should do this already, so there's no need for the correct cable. it cut a great deal of hum out after i switched it, but i still hear hissing compared to a balanced connection from a balanced dac/amp. if anyone knows of anything else i can do, im all ears tbh.
anyways i have been praying for a balanced atmos preamp for ages but the china dac/amp scene has not answered, this is still quite expensive, but alas i'm tempted.

Even with that switch, the cable can still pick up noise as explained in Hypex's articles. So you still need a cable that is design to give you almost the same benefits as XLR-XLR cables. "Correct" is not just about grounding, it also means the RCA-XLR cable has two conductors for the signal current, so it does not rely on the braided ground wire. Since this thread if about the Tide, I don't want to side track it too much. If you are interested in trying to reduce the hiss further, or even eliminate it, when pending your decision on upgrading to an AVP with balanced I/Os, I can PM you links to the proper ASR threads on the Hypex article related discussions or you may be able to search those threads yourself.

 

[PristineSound]

No there are a million posts by you trying to spread this rumor.

For the record: I was informing another member about the reported MP's reliability issues when they brought up that the MP as an alternative. Then you responded to me first with this attack when I wasn't even talking to you.

Having said that, you are one of the owners who gets very upset and defensive because someone happen to be questioning the MP's reliability and bringing unwanted negative attention to it. You should get over it; there is no need to get so booty hurt over it.

And because of your reply is trying to diminish and sweep this under the rug, I am compelled to share with others even more: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-amp-long-term-reliability.25744/post-2500459

And because I want to be respectful to the moderator of this site, you will be fully ignored by me so that I don't create any cleanup for moderator.

 

[Mort]

For the record: I was informing another member about the reported MP's reliability issues when they brought up that the MP as an alternative. Then you responded to me first with this attack when I wasn't even talking to you.

Having said that, you are one of the owners who gets very upset and defensive because someone happen to be questioning the MP's reliability and bringing unwanted negative attention to it. You should get over it; there is no need to get so booty hurt over it.

And because of your reply is trying to diminish and sweep this under the rug, I am compelled to share with others even more: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-amp-long-term-reliability.25744/post-2500459

And because I want to be respectful to the moderator of this site, you will be fully ignored by me so that I don't create any cleanup for moderator.

It's tough when you get called on your own bullshit. And I probably won't ignore you so I can continue to identify your falsehoods.

 

[Mort]

Folks are already comparing the Tide16 to the AV20 (a full-fledged AVP) or planning to hook up to their PS5/PC (coming from a 4800). Don't look now, but they're already here!

I guess so. Mainstream to me are people that go to Best buy to buy an AVR, or read a Wirecutter review.

 

[peng]

Currently using an HTx with a 4x NC502MP and 1x NCx500OEM from VTV. Using them balanced, you can hear the noise floor because they’re not really gain-matched. The gain on the amp input is higher than appropriate for what is sent out by the HTx’s balanced outputs. I sit 8’ away from my speakers, and they have an average efficiency (Philharmonic BMRs). I know this doesn’t make sense to some of the math nerds, but I troubleshooted this for months last year (you can see my post on here).

I ended up using some voltage attenuators (Sescom -10dB for the surrounds, Sescom -5dB for the center channel that is on the NCx500OEM, and my Topping A90 Discrete set to 70% for L/R). Sounds great and I have no issues now; just thought I’d mention it in this thread since there was some chatter about what amps to use with the Tide16. I’d use these amps with the Tide16, but it’s not completely plug and play.

I also am using my HTx with a buckeyeamp NC502MP (but only 2 channel) with my BMR bookshelf monitor and/or KEF R900 that is much more sensitive, and never have any issue with noise. I am actually very sensitive to hiss, hum and fan noise. When you say "The gain on the amp input is higher than appropriate....." why exactly is the issue? What is the gain of your NC502MP? Mine is only 25 dB, and I wish it was higher. As it is now, I have to listen at volume at around -10 even sitting from 8 feet, and SPL below 70 dB average. I can even use RCA to XLR cable and still there is no audible hiss from 8 ft.

HTx output voltage is relative low, specs say max 4 V, so may be the source you listen to, and the source player output is very high? I am curious because this seems to be the first time I read about someone using the HTx with a Hypex based amp having to use attenuators.

 

[Mort]

I also am using my HTx with a buckeyeamp NC502MP (but only 2 channel) with my BMR bookshelf monitor and/or KEF R900 that is much more sensitive, and never have any issue with noise. I am actually very sensitive to hiss, hum and fan noise. When you say "The gain on the amp input is higher than appropriate....." why exactly is the issue? What is the gain of your NC502MP? Mine is only 25 dB, and I wish it was higher. As it is now, I have to listen at volume at around -10 even sitting from 8 feet, and SPL below 70 dB average. I can even use RCA to XLR cable and still there is no audible hiss from 8 ft.

HTx output voltage is relative low, specs say max 4 V, so may be the source you listen to, and the source player output is very high? I am curious because this seems to be the first time I read about someone using the HTx with a Hypex based amp having to use attenuators.

Agreed. I have almost the same setup except philharmonic ht towers which are easier to drive, true. Still i have to have everything maxed out to get hiss from a foot or so.

 

[rzrike]

I also am using my HTx with a buckeyeamp NC502MP (but only 2 channel) with my BMR bookshelf monitor and/or KEF R900 that is much more sensitive, and never have any issue with noise. I am actually very sensitive to hiss, hum and fan noise. When you say "The gain on the amp input is higher than appropriate....." why exactly is the issue? What is the gain of your NC502MP? Mine is only 25 dB, and I wish it was higher. As it is now, I have to listen at volume at around -10 even sitting from 8 feet, and SPL below 70 dB average. I can even use RCA to XLR cable and still there is no audible hiss from 8 ft.

HTx output voltage is relative low, specs say max 4 V, so may be the source you listen to, and the source player output is very high? I am curious because this seems to be the first time I read about someone using the HTx with a Hypex based amp having to use attenuators.

The VTV NC502MP is the stock 26.5dB buffer. Talking to Warren at VTV, he confirmed that the amps are expecting 2V rather than 4V even though it has XLR balanced inputs. I guess owners are more likely to use RCA-to-XLR with the amps. When using RCA-to-XLR from the HTx to the NC502MP, I get no hiss (but a major reason why I switched to an HTx in the first place was for the balanced outputs given I kept running into ground loops with my previous set-up). Every source is the same level of hiss (USB from computer, USB from Wiim Ultra, HDMI from TV). The hiss is present even if here are no inputs physically connected to the HTx, as long as the HTx is not muted.

The HTx is always 4V out of TRS balanced because it uses digital volume control only.

 

[rzrike]

Agreed. I have almost the same setup except philharmonic ht towers which are easier to drive, true. Still i have to have everything maxed out to get hiss from a foot or so.

With my set-up, there is no difference between maxed out or almost muted. Since the HTx uses digital volume control rather than analog voltage attenuation, it is always sending out 4V via TRS balanced. There's no gain switch on my VTV NC502MP, so the whole chain is always "maxed out" in a way, even if I set the HTx to -90dB (and indeed I still hear the hiss).

I do sit about 2 feet away from one of my surrounds (was a Philharmonic True Mini, now a Super Mini). It's definitely the speaker that was annoying me the most, mainly during silent parts of a movie. I also would say I have sensitive hearing.

 

[peng]

Agreed. I have almost the same setup except philharmonic ht towers which are easier to drive, true. Still i have to have everything maxed out to get hiss from a foot or so.

My volume dial also get penalized because I use DLBC PC standalone that grabbed 10 to 15 dB.

 

[markus]

There is a whole thread on the reliability issue with the the Hypex MP series. The mere fact of me bringing this up will cause manufacturers and owners gets very upset and defensive for questioning the MP's reliability and bringing unwanted negative attention to it. But whatever, consumers need to know so that they can make a fully informed decision.

Outside of the reliability issue, the Buckeye casework has a lot of protest, whereas the miniDSP and Monolith don't have the same level of protest.

What reliability issue? I have a KJF amp with four NC252MP modules, and after four years it’s still humming along nicely.

 

[mdsimon2]

For practical use, even my tiny and cheap 2X4HD never seem to have noise/distortion issues, and my HT and HTx are also silent (to me anyway), but I am not sure if anyone has done or seen measurements that verified the 20-30 dB headroom loss you referred to.

I agree with @popej, with analog volume control you can get away with much poorer dynamic range. This makes the ASR dynamic range test for AVRs a bit misleading and is why you don't have tons of people with AVRs complaining about hiss, despite poor dynamic range measurements.

Personally I like to think in terms of absolute noise level in uV, for me I want it to be in the low-100s or better based on the listening tests / measurements I completed here -> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...na-with-topping-performance.24768/post-850138.

Let's take a quick example comparing a 120 dB @ 4 V dynamic range DAC with digital volume control vs 100 dB @ 4 V dynamic range DAC with a perfect analog volume control, looking at -25 dB listening level for both in to a 100 dB @ 5 W in to 4 ohm dynamic range amplifier with 26 dB gain and 50 uV residual noise.

Digital Volume Control
DAC noise = 4 x 10 ^ (-120/20) x 10^6 = 4 uV
amplified DAC noise = 4 uV x 10^(26/20) = 80 uV
amp noise = 50 uV
total noise = sqrt (50^2 + 80^2) = 94 uV, this will be the same regardless of attenuation due to the digital volume control

Analog Volume Control
DAC noise = 4 x 10^(-100/20) x 10^6 = 40 uV
attenuated DAC noise = 40 x 10^(-25/20) = 2.2 uV
amplified DAC noise (after attenuation) = 2.2 uV x 10^(26/20) = 45 uV
amp noise = 50 uV
total noise = sqrt (50^2 + 45^2) = 67 uV

Michael

 

[peng]

I agree with @popej, with analog volume control you can get away with much poorer dynamic range. This makes the ASR dynamic range test for AVRs a bit misleading and is why you don't have tons of people with AVRs complaining about hiss, despite poor dynamic range measurements.

Personally I like to think in terms of absolute noise level in uV, for me I want it to be in the low-100s or better based on the listening tests / measurements I completed here -> https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...na-with-topping-performance.24768/post-850138.

Let's take a quick example comparing a 120 dB @ 4 V dynamic range DAC with digital volume control vs 100 dB @ 4 V dynamic range DAC with a perfect analog volume control, looking at -25 dB listening level for both in to a 100 dB @ 5 W in to 4 ohm dynamic range amplifier with 26 dB gain and 50 uV residual noise.

Digital Volume Control
DAC noise = 4 x 10 ^ (-120/20) x 10^6 = 4 uV
amplified DAC noise = 4 uV x 10^(26/20) = 80 uV
amp noise = 50 uV
total noise = sqrt (50^2 + 80^2) = 94 uV, this will be the same regardless of attenuation due to the digital volume control

Analog Volume Control
DAC noise = 4 x 10^(-100/20) x 10^6 = 40 uV
attenuated DAC noise = 40 x 10^(-25/20) = 2.2 uV
amplified DAC noise (after attenuation) = 2.2 uV x 10^(26/20) = 45 uV
amp noise = 50 uV
total noise = sqrt (50^2 + 45^2) = 67 uV

Michael

Thanks, I wasn't disagreeing with him at all, just not sure what he meant by "If it use digital volume, then probably 20-30dB headroom is needed for volume control." He has since clarified that it wasn't a loss of headroom (so I misunderstood).

 

[peng]

With my set-up, there is no difference between maxed out or almost muted. Since the HTx uses digital volume control rather than analog voltage attenuation, it is always sending out 4V via TRS balanced.

That does not mean it is always sending out 4 V, it can be 0 or near 0 depending on the source signal. May be you meant the noise level?

 

[masterhw]

May be I misunderstood what you mean (may be you mean the noise level?), for source music signal, the HTx obviously does not always output 4 V regardless of digital or analog volume control, 4 V is just the maximum as stated in miniDSP's specifications. If there is no signal, the output will be 0 or very nearly 0 V. The output voltage is dependent on the source, so it is variable when connected to a music audio signal, and the output voltage could be anywhere from 0 to 4 V when the output signal should remain pristine, it could go a little higher if keep cranking the volume up, or the input audio signal is too high, but you will then hear distortions.

I also got a bit tripped up by their comment, but it is true that if using solely digital volume control then the DAC noise level would be fairly fixed regardless of whether the DAC is at quiet output or loud. If the noise is fixed then turning down the signal would bring the two closer together, making the noise/hiss audible after 26dB of amplification.
Analog volume control is usually preferable for quality for this reason, it allows the signal at time of creation to put maximum distance between itself and the noise floor, where you then bring both down to the desired level afterward. AVRs and some AVPs do this, block diagrams (when published) will indicate.

Ironically after doing some of the napkin math on ideal gain staging (@mdsimon2 did this above, great work!) I ended up warmer on AVRs. I hate to come to the conclusion that using high performing gear like miniDSP and Hypex amps can result in worse performance somehow, but I can’t see a way to very easily manage analog volume control in these types of setups.

 

[TimoJ]

What reliability issue? I have a KJF amp with four NC252MP modules, and after four years it’s still humming along nicely.

Have you opened it and checked how these capacitors are doing? Still looking normal or with tops bulged and leaking?