miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

[peng]

I hope that Garry found another job where his skills would be put to better use. American and Korean culture are different and not sure Garry passes the test.

To be clear though, the filter 1 vs 2 is real, effects are measurable, actually measured by them, and Amir. Whether one can hear the difference or not will of course depend, Gene seemed to say it was difficult for him to tell the difference but he did say which one he preferred so I assume he heard difference however subtle it was to him. Archimago's website apparently has some comparison listening test results on different DAC filters as well but I am too lazy to even bother reading those.

I give Marantz engineering the credit for finally used HDAM versions that no longer drops SINAD, so at least their presence don't do any harm, so that's good engineering, and I think the filter options included was a win for the engineers/designers as they can give the "warm" sound vs "more accurate" sound a reason (again, audibility is a different story) whereas in the past they had to @=]&*%$# to make an unwinnable case based on the HDAM buffers only.

 

[ban25]

To be clear though, the filter 1 vs 2 is real, effects are measurable, actually measured by them, and Amir. Whether one can hear the difference or not will of course depend, Gene seemed to say it was difficult for him to tell the difference but he did say which one he preferred so I assume he heard difference however subtle it was to him. Archimago's website apparently has some comparison listening test results on different DAC filters as well but I am too lazy to even bother reading those.

I give Marantz engineering the credit for finally used HDAM versions that no longer drops SINAD, so at least their presence don't do any harm, so that's good engineering, and I think the filter options included was a win for the engineers/designers as they can give the "warm" sound vs "more accurate" sound a reason (again, audibility is a different story) whereas in the past they had to @=]&*%$# to make an unwinnable case based on the HDAM buffers only.

I have set filter 2 (benchmark), though when toggling between them with a source playing, I could not discern a difference.

 

[Oddball]

To be clear though, the filter 1 vs 2 is real, effects are measurable, actually measured by them, and Amir. Whether one can hear the difference or not will of course depend, Gene seemed to say it was difficult for him to tell the difference but he did say which one he preferred so I assume he heard difference however subtle it was to him. Archimago's website apparently has some comparison listening test results on different DAC filters as well but I am too lazy to even bother reading those.

I give Marantz engineering the credit for finally used HDAM versions that no longer drops SINAD, so at least their presence don't do any harm, so that's good engineering, and I think the filter options included was a win for the engineers/designers as they can give the "warm" sound vs "more accurate" sound a reason (again, audibility is a different story) whereas in the past they had to @=]&*%$# to make an unwinnable case based on the HDAM buffers only.

It is a blessing that HDMS are transparent. Not sure why they are there to start with but that is a different story and probably not for this thread.

Just for transparency, I use full range room correction and roll off highs just by 2 db. I find it funny that many aging audiophiles keep rolling of the high end range more aggressively as they for sure are challenged in hearing the higher end range. It could be my speakers that are not harsh to start with but more likely that it rolls off with inevitable decay of time.

 

[OCA]

ART was out in beta testing with 20-300hz range, but Dirac decided that 150hz is more appropriate cut-off. Not sure what was the reason but probably a good one.

Tide is definitively a wellcome offering and hopefully strives and expands its features.

Apart from SINAD chasing, there is another product in this price range that is offering great features. Seems like most people are not mentioning it at all in this thread. Monoprice HTP-1 is a bit old but got its life extended with recent ART implementation. If recall, SINAD around 100dB. Other main features are ART with without filter limitation like D&M (for its max 16 ch processing and output), PEQ before ART, tone controls after ART, and BEQ support. Additional benefit is internal channel mapping that makes it easy to use REW to measure all your speakers, including Atmos. While ART software is still beta, many beta testers of many years are reporting it is rock solid.

IMO next steps for Dirac is to improve Dirac Live/ART handover that is a bit choppy and continue to work on Dirac Live to make it better in differentiating between room and speakers as well as time alignment with ART.

Unlikely that we will see Trinnov style mic with Dirac ever as Dirac is a product that is mass marketed and even at half price of Trinnov mic it would not call for any wider adoption. If they could develop and sell (as well as used in their development) a mic that would address timing alignment better than UMIC1, at the price range of UMIC2, that would probably sell in limited, or potentially decent quantity.

A Linkwitz–Riley low-pass filter at 150Hz (at least 4th order) is applied to each support speaker, which in practice begins attenuating bass from around 80 Hz upward. This avoids bass localization and the center of the soundstage being pulled toward a support speaker:

 

[Oddball]

A Linkwitz–Riley low-pass filter at 150Hz (at least 4th order) is applied to each support speaker, which in practice begins attenuating bass from around 80 Hz upward. This avoids bass localization and the center of the soundstage being pulled toward a support speaker:

View attachment 506683

At this point not really that interested in how ART works but just a function of available time and results I get. Hopefully that will change and will be able to dig deeper.

But this is interesting. So if you have bookshelves with 80hz support range you are actually not getting much benefit from them as they phase in and out like a summer breeze?

 

[OCA]

At this point not really that interested in how ART works but just a function of available time and results I get. Hopefully that will change and will be able to dig deeper.

But this is interesting. So if you have bookshelves with 80hz support range you are actually not getting much benefit from them as they phase in and out like a summer breeze?

Probably but the phase response outside the comfortable frequencies can still be very useful to ART.

 

[Oddball]

Probably but the phase response outside the comfortable frequencies can still be very useful to ART.

I love French but don't understand it.

 

[Harryharryharry]

How long do minidsp typically take between product iterations? E.g. flex to flex digital and so on?

Wondering whether to wait for a cheaper version or just got for it.

Main thing I like about this is ART in a compact form factor. Bought an AVR to access ART but it won't fit in the space I have. And is ugly af.

Transparent beyond doubt and XLR a bonus.

My use case is 2.2 so a Tide8 at a lower price would be amazing.

 

[Mort]

How long do minidsp typically take between product iterations? E.g. flex to flex digital and so on?

Wondering whether to wait for a cheaper version or just got for it.

Main thing I like about this is ART in a compact form factor. Bought an AVR to access ART but it won't fit in the space I have. And is ugly af.

Transparent beyond doubt and XLR a bonus.

My use case is 2.2 so a Tide8 at a lower price would be amazing.

Not that fast for something this big. A year or more. Plus they were skeptical that there would be a smaller version, thinking it would still not be cheap enough.

I would buy and sell it back if they make an 8.

 

[peng]

I have set filter 2 (benchmark), though when toggling between them with a source playing, I could not discern a difference.

You might have a better chance if you play source material recorded in 16 or 24 bit, 44.1 kHz but they would still require little to no hearing loss in high frequency range 10-20 kHz. At high rate such as 96 kHz I doubt anyone can hear a difference if do it in DBT or even level matched SBT.

 

[Sokel]

Problem with measuring and compare stuff like mainstream AVR's is their gazillion of subsystems, power saving schemes to follow various country rules, protections, etc.

I'm sure some of them can be shut-off in some (advanced?) menus but it needs a really thorough inspection to know and that would take to get really intimate with the gear.

But yes, a real-life test should be mandatory, nobody is gonna use it sterilized, in fact their selling points is the exact opposite.
Same with miniDSP, nobody buys it as a DAC alone, it's its main selling points that must be tested.

 

[Lsc]

Problem with measuring and compare stuff like mainstream AVR's is their gazillion of subsystems, power saving schemes to follow various country rules, protections, etc.

I'm sure some of them can be shut-off in some (advanced?) menus but it needs a really thorough inspection to know and that would take to get really intimate with the gear.

But yes, a real-life test should be mandatory, nobody is gonna use it sterilized, in fact their selling points is the exact opposite.
Same with miniDSP, nobody buys it as a DAC alone, it's its main selling points that must be tested.

All that wont be tested by ASR though. They only test the left and right channel regardless of how many channels there are. I like the fact that there is a baseline though and the manufacturers that keep this in mind are reaping the benefits while others are not.

As an owner of the Emotiva XMC2, this really hits home. Based on ASR’s review, it’s a terrible unit, but all the folks that have watched a movie at my house would all agree that the movie sound quality is very very good and it literally blows them away. Ive already owned this for 7 years so it’s pretty much all I know from my home perspective so I don’t think anyone is as curious as I am on how much better a better measuring processor will sound in my system especially with DLBC and ART…both are missing in my system.

I know I know…most of you guys only care about measurements while I really only care about enjoying the sound.

 

[kyuu]

I know I know…most of you guys only care about measurements while I really only care about enjoying the sound.

You plainly don't understand the measurements if you think your enjoyment of your Emotiva is in some way contradictory to them. It didn't receive a bad review because of obviously audible issues. Just like my JBL AVR got a bad review, but if you understand the measurements it's actually audibly just fine for most setups.

 

[Sokel]

Guilty, I do care for measurements.

BUT!
I care about the measurements that fit the purpose.

If it's a power amp for example, it's, well, power first, real one, potential, load dependencies, a little immunity (eg. input impedance) , low noise, etc, the works (distortion not so much, it has to be enormous to get meaningful)

miniDSP now. What's the purpose?
Filters along with rock solid gains.

So, gain structure, volume control (and where is located), DSP engine and horsepower, potential falling apart manifested at quantization noise, decoding, etc.

At the end of the day, I hook it on, draw some 5 meters cables and measure it as it sits, on my rack, my listening levels, etc.
I can assure everyone that only a few devices hold on filtered, as low as we normally listen ,tolerating their upstreams , rejecting their own noise in a non-intrusive fashion while immune to the external usual spaghetti and conditions.

Unlike people, they do nice in solitude but mix them and...

 

[Lsc]

You plainly don't understand the measurements if you think your enjoyment of your Emotiva is in some way contradictory to them. It didn't receive a bad review because of obviously audible issues. Just like my JBL AVR got a bad review, but if you understand the measurements it's actually audibly just fine for most setups.

The processors are ranked accordingly based on the measurements by ASR.

In case you didn’t read the review…here is the last bit where ASR actually stopped the test short…if this result makes the XMC2 is a fine sounding unit then what’s the point of even testing anything? Green, yellow, red..:they all sound just fine. Why does anyone care about measurements then?

ASR….
“I didn't see a reason to keep testing the XMC-2.

Conclusions
The XMC-2 reminds me of getting a new job at a company and taking over a messy project with tons of problems. Lesson I learned there was to just ditch then thing and start over with a clean design. I think such is the situation with XMC-2. It clearly has a list of hardware and software design problems.

Needless to say, I can't recommend the Emotiva XMC-2.Get yourself a Denon AVR and use its pre-amp outs. Yes, you don't get balanced output but if you are not facing ground loops and connections are short, you should be OK. At least you get a working product with very respectable measurements.”

 

[OCA]

I love French but don't understand it.

Even when a surround speaker has a weak output at 60Hz, if its 60Hz output has opposite polarity (180 degrees different phase), this will be good enough to cancel out (or at least drop it to inaudible levels) the 60Hz reflection wave from the main speaker which is already a bit weaker after all the traveling in the air and hitting the wall. Hate to admit this but ART is next gen and no manual calibration with classical SISO filters can match it

 

[Andysu]

not worth it for rubbish atmos , i'd bin the minitrashdsp atmos , bin it , get a decent proper Dolby Stereo install , don't need dolby trashmos

 

[MikeP]

I am positively surprised that minidsp is bringing a product on the market with the full Dirac suite on board. There have been numerous requests in this regard, so this is a win. However, I didn't expect an AVP...

To be honest, I don't care (anymore) about the video part and all those bundled codecs. It would have been nice to keep the focus on audio reproduction. An ARC/eARC input would be enough for those not seeking an AVP.

I'm also surprised about the missing streaming capabilities, specifically a Roon endpoint. Well, I guess we can't have it all.

I wanted to see an updated SHD, with better streaming module (maybe LinkPlay), full Dirac suite, better remote (Bluetooth would have been nice) and 6-8 output channels. I can only hope that minidsp will listen to the user feedback and such a product will see the light of day...

 

[chelgrian]

not worth it for rubbish atmos , i'd bin the minitrashdsp atmos , bin it , get a decent proper Dolby Stereo install , don't need dolby trashmos

Dolby licensing is such that there is a single license for all Dolby audio technologies and the licensed unit must default to the highest supported mode so while technically possible it’s not contractually possible to do that in a new unit.

 

[Mort]

Minidsp confirms Tide16 will support max 4 subwoofers, like DIRACart.