miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

[masterhw]

and most soundsystems won't deliver more than 16bits (96dB) of dynamic range, though in practice this is more like 12-14bits at home (72-84dB).

This is definitely true, but it should be kept in mind that using DSP can very quickly eat into dynamic range headroom. then non-optimal gain staging can easily eat up more. I generally try and let DSP be performed with as much information as is available, going out of my way to get lossless sources when reasonably available. If it were file compression alone I’d have a hard time telling the difference on most content, but full playback chains are complex and the further each step strays from ideal the more assumptions individually true end up on the whole untrue.

 

[darth]

I'm gonna keep trying....


MiniDSP also confirms that they will neither confirm nor deny the possibility of Digital AES3 / Dante in the future.

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I figured I might as well ask lol. Knew the answer before tho.

 

[chelgrian]

I figured I might as well ask lol. Knew the answer before tho.

Dante is expensive adding 16 channel output capability could easily add $500 to the price of the unit.

The only way I can see such a thing making sense is if it is developed and marketed for QA of the encoded versions for studios mixing in Atmos.

 

[jhaider]

MiniDSP confirms there will NOT be a version sold without Dirac for any reason, tariffs or otherwise.



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I don't see why anyone would want that. It's like obsessing over cassette tapes when there is immersive streaming available. What would put miniDSP back in front, though, is ART-capable boxes without the other stupid licenses. Unfortunately, except for this box miniDSP's Dirac support has been obsolete for about a half decade now. Really too bad for the pioneer in this space.

Lossless audio is not a scam. Same titles on Blu Ray do sound better than on streaming where they get clipped for the bit rate. In my case, I prefer the convenience of streaming vs ordering, changing and then returning the discs to the library. Lazy dog and penguin is even worse.

I've personally not heard evidence of that. I've compared a few immersive disks to the Apple Music version, and in every case nothing about the comparison provided a compelling reason to take the disk out and deal with all the time delays associated with disks instead of just hitting the button on the remote and getting music. Do you have an exemplar where the same master is on disk and Apple Music "Spatial Audio" and there are audible differences?

Apart from SINAD chasing, there is another product in this price range that is offering great features. Seems like most people are not mentioning it at all in this thread. Monoprice HTP-1 is a bit old but got its life extended with recent ART implementation. If recall, SINAD around 100dB. Other main features are ART with without filter limitation like D&M (for its max 16 ch processing and output), PEQ before ART, tone controls after ART, and BEQ support. Additional benefit is internal channel mapping that makes it easy to use REW to measure all your speakers, including Atmos. While ART software is still beta, many beta testers of many years are reporting it is rock solid.

I kind of see a point that they're different products for different customers...but I also don't, really. To the extent there's a market distinction, it's that miniDSP allows one to build a system with a lower channel count but active speakers with all processing in one box, at the (very high, IMO) cost of Auromatic and loudness compensation. (That's also why I'm surprised by all of the "Tide8" talk. If anything "Tide24" is IMO miniDSP's logical next step, as that would allow an immersive system with active LCR crossovers all controlled from one box without AD/DA looping. If they do a Dante one I hope it's a 64 channel or whatever the max is, because the would be cool AF even if way beyond what anyone reasonable needs.)

IMO the real distinction is that, HTP-1 is likely now hard to procure outside the US, while realities that make certain people complain when referenced currently jack up the price of miniDSP within the US. Still, it's unfortunate that Tide16 isn't shipping with Auro and I hope miniDSP fixes that. The other matter is that HTP-1 relies on DAC chips from a factory that burned down. I don't know if AKM has a direct replacement part should the stockpile run out.

 

[Curvature]

I kind of see a point that they're different products for different customers...but I also don't, really. To the extent there's a market distinction, it's that miniDSP allows one to build a system with a lower channel count but active speakers with all processing in one box, at the (very high, IMO) cost of Auromatic and loudness compensation. (That's also why I'm surprised by all of the "Tide8" talk. If anything "Tide24" is IMO miniDSP's logical next step, as that would allow an immersive system with active LCR crossovers all controlled from one box without AD/DA looping. If they do a Dante one I hope it's a 64 channel or whatever the max is, because the would be cool AF even if way beyond what anyone reasonable needs.)

I think you have the right perspective here.

 

[PJR918BMW]

40 + Pages. Just like that!
I'll tell you one thing I do know. If I was MiniDSP I would personally fly, from Hong Kong, a sample of the Tide 16 to Amir and sit with him while he does the testing. I suspect his review might be quite key to the success of this damned thing!

..or give me one for free and I'll send it to him. Honest.

 

[Oddball]

I've personally not heard evidence of that. I've compared a few immersive disks to the Apple Music version, and in every case nothing about the comparison provided a compelling reason to take the disk out and deal with all the time delays associated with disks instead of just hitting the button on the remote and getting music. Do you have an exemplar where the same master is on disk and Apple Music "Spatial Audio" and there are audible differences?

I was referring to movies but unfortunately don't even remember which titles I compared. This was years back when 4K Blu Ray just came out - and when I stopped buying disc. But think that for movies comparison is more obvious. Streaming bit rate is much lower than the disc. Another thing is that, at least in my market, there are not many Atmos titles in Apple store. Still mostly 5.1.

 

[Mort]

40 + Pages. Just like that!
I'll tell you one thing I do know. If I was MiniDSP I would personally fly, from Hong Kong, a sample of the Tide 16 to Amir and sit with him while he does the testing. I suspect his review might be quite key to the success of this damned thing!

..or give me one for free and I'll send it to him. Honest.

My understanding from them regarding other products, is that they send one of everything audio related to him. He has a long test list however, and chooses not to review every device. I'm sure he will review this one.

 

[PJR918BMW]

My understanding from them regarding other products, is that they send one of everything audio related to him. He has a long test list however, and chooses not to review every device. I'm sure he will review this one.

You think!?

 

[peng]

Someone just

You think!?

I suggested that they sent one to Amir already. We'll see if they bite. The bait is the potential top spot on the SINAD that that has been home to the Marantz AV10 in the AVR/AVP category, the other two in the top 3 in the non AVR/AVP cat are miniDSP devices and 1 NAD streamer/amplifier.

 

[welwynnick]

Someone just

I suggested that they sent one to Amir already. We'll see if they bite. The bait is the potential top spot on the SINAD that that has been home to the Marantz AV10 in the AVR/AVP category, the other two in the top 3 in the non AVR/AVP cat are miniDSP devices and 1 NAD streamer/amplifier.

That's funny, I was just wondering if you were SNG? Writing style and all that.....

 

[Oddball]

Someone just

I suggested that they sent one to Amir already. We'll see if they bite. The bait is the potential top spot on the SINAD that that has been home to the Marantz AV10 in the AVR/AVP category, the other two in the top 3 in the non AVR/AVP cat are miniDSP devices and 1 NAD streamer/amplifier.

Would be good to see Marantz de-throned. Might give them incentive to do better with next gen.

I also think that going forward, AVPs (and AVRs) should also be tested with room correction engaged. Gets complicated, but at least up to 500hz. So instead of just understanding the engineering excellence, we do get an idea of real life performance parameters.

 

[Mort]

should also be tested with room correction engaged.

I wish the testers could too. But it adds too much work, I expect. And the results will never be very applicable.

Erin might do his next Genelec review with GLM, but it'll probably just be a one-off subjective thing.

 

[peng]

Would be good to see Marantz de-throned. Might give them incentive to do better with next gen.

I also think that going forward, AVPs (and AVRs) should also be tested with room correction engaged. Gets complicated, but at least up to 500hz. So instead of just understanding the engineering excellence, we do get an idea of real life performance parameters.

I would bet without hesitation that the Marantz AV10 will be dethrone on the audio side. It has a reference class DAC IC, but in cannot compete with the Tide 16's lower grade DAC IC because of a case of just differential implementation versus Quad differential and fully balanced implementation. miniDSP's own measurements show 118 dB SINAD, so I would take an educated guess that Amir should be able to get around 112-118 dB. Yes it is a case of engineering excellence even though Marantz's engineering is excellent too. I am not sure if measuring with RC is all that desirable, it is of course nice to see such results but we probably do know the ball park guessimate of 10 to 20 dB. If we assume 15 dB drop then dropping from 115 dB still gets us in the 100 dB range, that's better than dropping from 100 dB ending up in 85 dB.

Regardless, if enjoying an immersive track such as Atoms, and with DL ART/DLBC engaged, 85 dB net SINAD or even 70 dB wouldn't be much of an audible issue I would think, sensitive ears may hear noise during very quiet scenes if the room ambient noise is also very low.

 

[EWL5]

Would be good to see Marantz de-throned. Might give them incentive to do better with next gen.

I also think that going forward, AVPs (and AVRs) should also be tested with room correction engaged. Gets complicated, but at least up to 500hz. So instead of just understanding the engineering excellence, we do get an idea of real life performance parameters.

They serve different markets so Marantz won’t be dethroned. The video side of the Tide16 would need to be beefed up to be a world beater!

 

[Oddball]

I would bet without hesitation that the Marantz AV10 will be dethrone on the audio side. It has a reference class DAC IC, but in cannot compete with the Tide 16's lower grade DAC IC because of a case of just differential implementation versus Quad differential and fully balanced implementation. miniDSP's own measurements show 118 dB SINAD, so I would take an educated guess that Amir should be able to get around 112-118 dB. Yes it is a case of engineering excellence even though Marantz's engineering is excellent too. I am not sure if measuring with RC is all that desirable, it is of course nice to see such results but we probably do know the ball park guessimate of 10 to 20 dB. If we assume 15 dB drop then dropping from 115 dB still gets us in the 100 dB range, that's better than dropping from 100 dB ending up in 85 dB.

Regardless, if enjoying an immersive track such as Atoms, and with DL ART/DLBC engaged, 85 dB net SINAD or even 70 dB wouldn't be much of an audible issue I would think, sensitive ears may hear noise during very quiet scenes if the room ambient noise is also very low.

My post was genuine - and as AV10 owner don't mind if Tide measures (much) better. On the contrary, let's keep the game tight and push the limits. Perhaps even Sorm and Trinnov would (should?) get worried if Tide gets to +18dB SINAD over them? That is a very large number, as opposed to +7dB or so for AV10. I hope that a Samsung executive with AV10 will find Tide's result as a challenge to order a whole team to beat the result with the next release.

I would still want the measurements with room correction engaged - at least indicative - so we can pin-point the ball park with a bit more accuracy, and also compare various implementations of e.g. Dirac ART.

I am with you all the way on audibility of the SINAD range. My 6 surrounds and 4 Atmos speakers run off old Rotels with 80dB SINAD. Have tried to run Storm 16 amp with much higher SINAD, but could not hear any audible difference, so local Storm dealer was not in luck. What is more important, at least in my mind, is the overall noise floor. Your residential noise is what it is and I live in urban area with relatively low 40dB noise during the day and 35 or lower after 8 or so PM. In some urban areas (think NYC), this is a bit worse.

But the most important is that there is no hiss, or equivalent in your system as that really is a dreadful thing. I have just packed my Dubai HT as will no longer spend significant time there. It was always driving me nuts that the system had a hiss, even if it was barely audible at MLP and easily covered by even 60dB signal. Luckily, my bigger system is dead silent. Can put my ear on any of the speakers and hear just nothing - like it is supposed to work. I power it at -10dB, which is quite a decent volume.

 

[Curvature]

Regardless, if enjoying an immersive track such as Atoms, and with DL ART/DLBC engaged, 85 dB net SINAD or even 70 dB wouldn't be much of an audible issue I would think, sensitive ears may hear noise during very quiet scenes if the room ambient noise is also very low.

It really depends on the sensitivity of the speakers and the way DSP is used whether or not those numbers are sufficient to avoid audible noise.

Marantz's engineering is excellent too

From what I remember, the default DAC filter is slow on their processors. Not a big issue audibly, but a strange engineering decision.

Looking at these recent reviews, they seem to have improved their approach:

Marantz Cinema 40 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz Cinema 40 9.4 channel AV Receiver (AVR). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $3,500. As is typical in this class, you get a very large box. At least the look is unique and to my liking. The port hole display while limiting...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz AV10 Audio/Video Processor (AVP). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $7000. My picture doesn't do justice to the nice look of the unit. It is a massive step up from past Marantz AV products. I am still not a fan of the port...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[Oddball]

It really depends on the sensitivity of the speakers and the way DSP is used whether or not those numbers are sufficient to avoid audible noise.

From what I remember, the default DAC filter is slow on their processors. Not a big issue audibly, but a strange engineering decision.

Looking at these recent reviews, they seem to have improved their approach:

Marantz Cinema 40 AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz Cinema 40 9.4 channel AV Receiver (AVR). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $3,500. As is typical in this class, you get a very large box. At least the look is unique and to my liking. The port hole display while limiting...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz AV10 Audio/Video Processor (AVP). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $7000. My picture doesn't do justice to the nice look of the unit. It is a massive step up from past Marantz AV products. I am still not a fan of the port...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Agreed that it is not a biggie. Actually pretty challenging to notice, but possible with focused listening on the high end range. If people would be give this task in double blind test without knowing what they are listening to, not sure if they could come up with a distinction at required confidence level.

This is default on Marantz range up to C30. C30 has option for 2 DAC filters, one being the "normal" one. AVPs have this option as well. Not sure if this was engineering decision. Engineering department is only one of the many corporate departments.

For laughs and giggles, I am linking this video to illustrate what a marketing department can do to a greatly engineered product. In main role is Garry, a Marantz marketing guy, talking about the Marantz signature sound that is "warm". There is also a definition of what warm is, that is a highlight of its own. There are references to golden elven ears as well that apparently tuned AV10 to become what it is. As AV10 owner, I am really ashamed of this video, but then Garry can't spoil my enjoyment, just put in perspective that competent engineering does not always align with competent marketing.

 

[peng]

For laughs and giggles, I am linking this video to illustrate what a marketing department can do to a greatly engineered product. In main role is Garry, a Marantz marketing guy, talking about the Marantz signature sound that is "warm".

Yep, give him the benefit of doubt, he just didn't know what logical, bottleneck analysis are, and/or couldn't think logically. If not, then I guess it could be consider as some sort of scam, albeit better intended one that wouldn't do harm lol.

 

[Oddball]

Yep, give him the benefit of doubt, he just didn't know what logical, bottleneck analysis are, and/or couldn't think logically. If not, then I guess it could be consider as some sort of scam, albeit better intended one that wouldn't do harm lol.

I hope that Garry found another job where his skills would be put to better use. American and Korean culture are different and not sure Garry passes the test.