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miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

What is Dirac Live Active Room Treatment (ART)?
  • Active Room Treatment is a cutting-edge addition to Dirac Live that uses your existing speakers as a unified system to control room resonances and significantly enhance bass clarity. ART offers performance that was previously only possible through extensive physical treatment.
What are the key benefits of ART?
  • Key benefits of ART include reduced room resonance and reverberation, tighter and cleaner bass response with reduced decay time, a larger bass response sweet spot, and enhanced seat-to-seat consistency.
How does ART work?
  • ART utilises patented MIMO technology to coordinate all speakers, optimising their interaction to manage room-induced resonances, particularly in the critical 20-150 Hz bass frequency range.

 
The most simple of all:
Detecting the same frequency range coming from two different locations at comparable level can align and sum them perfectly at a third location.

Ancient people mapped the sky doing that, without the means we have now for complex sums.
 
The difference is that the measurement does not care about the inherent DSP/any delays prior, all it sees is the beginning and the end and where it comes from, and that's all we need.
My point is that we don't need to know where the sound comes from, whereas we do need to know the total delay. Which we get from a point measurement.
 
Agreed. I do think that's the critical range and anything outside of it is not "super necessary". If they're able to solve the infrabass weakness, then they'll win over all the DLBC fans as well.
The point above was that if microphones were better at discriminating direct from reflected signals (beyond simple time-gating) then this would open the possibility of more beneficial corrections applied higher up the frequency range.
 
Which we get from a point measurement.
We should, yes.
But have a look around at the debate how to even make a measurement including a sub with a timing reference for example.
Most of the time they are way off.
 
I searched for 96kHz on Blu-ray.com > Blu-ray > Database > Search. These were the first 5 of many titles to come up:


Kal Rubinson has had a few things to say about high rate immersive audio.

Discussing the NuPrime MCX-800AD and H16:

Talking about using the Storm Evo, he said:

He said this about the forthcoming Storm DAC upgrade:
Thank you so much, I already have my fair lady, but for 96 kHz rate trial, I will buy that one for sure. Will try to find a couple more that I don't have and would like to watch. Hopefully the AVM70 can actually play them at that rate. It is supposed to be able to but I can only find out when I have at least one such disc. For concert disc I now it can do it (PCM anyway).
 
My point is that we don't need to know where the sound comes from, whereas we do need to know the total delay. Which we get from a point measurement.
1769089889204.png


Single point measurements cannot distinguish these scenarios. As you add stuff like wides, heights, and various rears, being able to have the sensation of a bubble of sound benefits from this type of technology. Sony and Yamaha AVRs did a great job of creating a bubble which is why they were popular despite idiosyncrasies and “SINAD” issues. The less ideal your speaker placement, the more value something like Trinnov is.

When Trinnov first entered the home market, they thought of remapping as a good solution for surround sound setups with poor layout. They then decided to move upmarket where good layout plus remapping gives you amazing immersion.

This also provides improved precision in measurement since you get repeated data 4x as fast for amplitude.
 
Not really in that purely geometric information doesn't include the other sources of delay (most notably but not exclusively DSP). Not sure it would really add anything over measurement at a single point in this regard?
Signal delay (constant per frequency) shouldn't affect final alignment, regardless of the cause. Group delay (different per frequency) might but with the kind of speakers and subs used at home it shouldn't be an issue. In PA circumstances, yes, but there everything is different and far less consistent.
 
Thank you so much, I already have my fair lady, but for 96 kHz rate trial, I will buy that one for sure. Will try to find a couple more that I don't have and would like to watch. Hopefully the AVM70 can actually play them at that rate. It is supposed to be able to but I can only find out when I have at least one such disc. For concert disc I now it can do it (PCM anyway).
If you're looking for more to test your system with, I bought this a while from Amazon but is hard to find now:

It remains as the only BD-Audio disc I own.
 
I could be wrong but it sounds like you're describing part of ART's job. There's a reason why it's called Active Room Treatment.
ART is based on: https://www.researchgate.net/public...ontrol_Using_a_Limited_Number_of_Loudspeakers

The algorithm was experimentally developed for car audio where listener positions are well-defined, using 64 measurement positions, for stereo, multichannel and upmixed content.

The only difference in what I am proposing to the current consumer offering of ART is that, if using a microphone cluster like Trinnov's, the position of each microphone in the cluster is fixed and known in terms of distance and height, while the current method uses single or multi-position location estimates. This limits accuracy and consistency of the measured impulse responses and the ability to estimate spatial characteristics, but it is a good practical product and engineering decision, given everything involved.
Agreed. I do think that's the critical range and anything outside of it is not "super necessary". If they're able to solve the infrabass weakness, then they'll win over all the DLBC fans as well.
The full critical range is 15-400Hz IMO. Below 15Hz tonal hearing begins to fall apart. However below 40Hz or so noise is a major issue and unless the SNR is consistently high, the algorithm would try to correct non-signal sounds, which might produce audible and unpleasant support signals or bust your speakers or their amps.

100-400Hz is where SBIR is the most problematic in rooms, and is much harder to address than modal problems, but correction would require high measurement precision and likely a fixed, or at least very narrow, listening position.

20-150Hz is a good compromise. Modal and some SBIR issues are addressed, fixing the kinds of low frequency and sub setup issues that most users struggle to understand. Most cheap acoustic treatments lose effectiveness rapidly below 200Hz, so setting the upper boundary at 150Hz helps home theater planning and installation, or the same for studios, massively decreasing costs since you don't need to invest in pressure-based bass panels, which are large, heavy, expensive and need a lot of space, since you need many for them to be effective.

I don't know how much benefit a microphone cluster would bring. miniDSP has an array it has been selling for years, so I wouldn't rule out integration at some point.

Overall, despite some limitations, I think Dirac ART is a good product with fairly low barriers to entry compared to Trinnov's offering. For someone like me with decent knowledge of acoustics and DSP, DLBC and other automated algorithms were not very useful. ART represents a next step and something fundamentally different, and the Tide16 has a good feature set and finally makes ART somewhat affordable, although I really would like a Tide8.

Like I wrote earlier, I don't mind making compromises in terms of how much I spend, the features of the device, usability and acoustic accuracy as long as the total package and results make sense.

One of the things that really attracted me to the Storm and Bryston devices was the user interface. But miniDSP's is good too, so as far as I'm concerned the value proposition for these very high-priced products became very thin and distant.
 
View attachment 506151

Single point measurements cannot distinguish these scenarios. As you add stuff like wides, heights, and various rears, being able to have the sensation of a bubble of sound benefits from this type of technology. Sony and Yamaha AVRs did a great job of creating a bubble which is why they were popular despite idiosyncrasies and “SINAD” issues. The less ideal your speaker placement, the more value something like Trinnov is.

When Trinnov first entered the home market, they thought of remapping as a good solution for surround sound setups with poor layout. They then decided to move upmarket where good layout plus remapping gives you amazing immersion.

This also provides improved precision in measurement since you get repeated data 4x as fast for amplitude.
Not sure how many Trinnov owners might benefit from remapping - one would imagine they can place the speakers properly. Bubble is not everything. My Yamaha A4A has been collecting dust in the basement for years. Playing second replacement role. Sony is for recreational HT people that don't want to bother.

BTW, the first diagram "ideal" is way off in larger system. Where they have put LR is actually where front wides go. Front LCR stage is in practice done at the same horizontal plane, so LR are usually a bit further than C. And most live happily ever after without remapping after taking care of many more important things.
 
If you're looking for more to test your system with, I bought this a while from Amazon but is hard to find now:

It remains as the only BD-Audio disc I own.
I already have a lot of 96, 192, and a few 352 kHz, and DSD up to DSD256, may be a couple 512 in 2 ch music, but none in movies. I paid premium for the higher rate not because I believe higher rate=audibly better sq but because those recorded/mastered in higher rate tend to have better recording/mastering quality even if at just CD quality.
 
ART is based on: https://www.researchgate.net/public...ontrol_Using_a_Limited_Number_of_Loudspeakers

The algorithm was experimentally developed for car audio where listener positions are well-defined, using 64 measurement positions, for stereo, multichannel and upmixed content.

The only difference in what I am proposing to the current consumer offering of ART is that, if using a microphone cluster like Trinnov's, the position of each microphone in the cluster is fixed and known in terms of distance and height, while the current method uses single or multi-position location estimates. This limits accuracy and consistency of the measured impulse responses and the ability to estimate spatial characteristics, but it is a good practical product and engineering decision, given everything involved.

The full critical range is 15-400Hz IMO. Below 15Hz tonal hearing begins to fall apart. However below 40Hz or so noise is a major issue and unless the SNR is consistently high, the algorithm would try to correct non-signal sounds, which might produce audible and unpleasant support signals or bust your speakers or their amps.

100-400Hz is where SBIR is the most problematic in rooms, and is much harder to address than modal problems, but correction would require high measurement precision and likely a fixed, or at least very narrow, listening position.

20-150Hz is a good compromise. Modal and some SBIR issues are addressed, fixing the kinds of low frequency and sub setup issues that most users struggle to understand. Most cheap acoustic treatments lose effectiveness rapidly below 200Hz, so setting the upper boundary at 150Hz helps home theater planning and installation, or the same for studios, massively decreasing costs since you don't need to invest in pressure-based bass panels, which are large, heavy, expensive and need a lot of space, since you need many for them to be effective.

I don't know how much benefit a microphone cluster would bring. miniDSP has an array it has been selling for years, so I wouldn't rule out integration at some point.

Overall, despite some limitations, I think Dirac ART is a good product with fairly low barriers to entry compared to Trinnov's offering. For someone like me with decent knowledge of acoustics and DSP, DLBC and other automated algorithms were not very useful. ART represents a next step and something fundamentally different, and the Tide16 has a good feature set and finally makes ART somewhat affordable, although I really would like a Tide8.

Like I wrote earlier, I don't mind making compromises in terms of how much I spend, the features of the device, usability and acoustic accuracy as long as the total package and results make sense.

One of the things that really attracted me to the Storm and Bryston devices was the user interface. But miniDSP's is good too, so as far as I'm concerned the value proposition for these very high-priced products became very thin and distant.
ART was out in beta testing with 20-300hz range, but Dirac decided that 150hz is more appropriate cut-off. Not sure what was the reason but probably a good one.

Tide is definitively a wellcome offering and hopefully strives and expands its features.

Apart from SINAD chasing, there is another product in this price range that is offering great features. Seems like most people are not mentioning it at all in this thread. Monoprice HTP-1 is a bit old but got its life extended with recent ART implementation. If recall, SINAD around 100dB. Other main features are ART with without filter limitation like D&M (for its max 16 ch processing and output), PEQ before ART, tone controls after ART, and BEQ support. Additional benefit is internal channel mapping that makes it easy to use REW to measure all your speakers, including Atmos. While ART software is still beta, many beta testers of many years are reporting it is rock solid.

IMO next steps for Dirac is to improve Dirac Live/ART handover that is a bit choppy and continue to work on Dirac Live to make it better in differentiating between room and speakers as well as time alignment with ART.

Unlikely that we will see Trinnov style mic with Dirac ever as Dirac is a product that is mass marketed and even at half price of Trinnov mic it would not call for any wider adoption. If they could develop and sell (as well as used in their development) a mic that would address timing alignment better than UMIC1, at the price range of UMIC2, that would probably sell in limited, or potentially decent quantity.
 
Not sure how many Trinnov owners might benefit from remapping - one would imagine they can place the speakers properly.
1769096123360.png


The whole point is that 3D remapping seems to help most deployments esp. with object based audio and a desire to handle ALL of the formats, not just the most popular one.

Bubble is not everything. My Yamaha A4A has been collecting dust in the basement for years. Playing second replacement role. Sony is for recreational HT people that don't want to bother.
For your A4A, is it in the basement collecting dust unplugged? Or in the basement running a secondary HT? If the latter, go ahead and recalibrate with with full YPAO RSC with the tripod. Then *enable* YPAO Volume *and* CinemaDSP in a mode like SciFi. You will be impressed.

Sony is a shell of its former self and it seems like the TCL partnership will kill the Sony line. That said, again, their ability for their 3D soundfield processing to create a bubble while maintaining overall precision is very good.

Bubble isn’t everything, but wouldn’t it be nice to have everything *and* the bubble?

BTW, the first diagram "ideal" is way off in larger system. Where they have put LR is actually where front wides go. Front LCR stage is in practice done at the same horizontal plane, so LR are usually a bit further than C. And most live happily ever after without remapping after taking care of many more important things.

I agree. That is a demonstration of what 10 ft to a single point microphone is UNABLE to determine which is where some technologies like Trinnov, which have certain patents expiring soon, makes sense.

Most live happily without fancy HT gear. Doesn’t hurt to make a wish list for MiniDSP when they seem to be listening to hobbyist feedback.
 
At, first? To the most asked question/threads since people tried to integrate subs with mains.
By triangulating you know exactly where they are so alignment is a breeze.
That’s pretty much the one case where a microphone cluster wouldn’t make sense – at low frequencies, the room completely overwhelms the direct response.
And that is just the tip, possibilities are endless when you can have dimensions at ready.
I don’t think they build products when there isn’t even a single application yet. Admittedly, that’s a chicken-and-egg problem, but why would they develop a product that nobody needs?
 
the Tide16 has a good feature set and finally makes ART somewhat affordable, although I really would like a Tide8.
A Tide8 wouldn’t be much cheaper than a Tide16, since the additional eight channels aren’t the main cost driver – so you might as well get the Tide16 and be happy :)
 
View attachment 506160

The whole point is that 3D remapping seems to help most deployments esp. with object based audio and a desire to handle ALL of the formats, not just the most popular one.


For your A4A, is it in the basement collecting dust unplugged? Or in the basement running a secondary HT? If the latter, go ahead and recalibrate with with full YPAO RSC with the tripod. Then *enable* YPAO Volume *and* CinemaDSP in a mode like SciFi. You will be impressed.

Sony is a shell of its former self and it seems like the TCL partnership will kill the Sony line. That said, again, their ability for their 3D soundfield processing to create a bubble while maintaining overall precision is very good.

Bubble isn’t everything, but wouldn’t it be nice to have everything *and* the bubble?



I agree. That is a demonstration of what 10 ft to a single point microphone is UNABLE to determine which is where some technologies like Trinnov, which have certain patents expiring soon, makes sense.

Most live happily without fancy HT gear. Doesn’t hurt to make a wish list for MiniDSP when they seem to be listening to hobbyist feedback.
Not sure where the bubble obsession comes from? Is it like without 3D remapping we are all living in a muddy cloud even we have our speakers positioned by the book?

Honestly, my priorities are different. I don't even want to go through full REW charts as it makes me anxious. Talking about 3D remapping is probably equivalent to time travel in my mind. Great to raise the points, but also good to be aware where they stand in the packing order.

BTW Yamaha is boxed and has been for 4 years now. Worst AVR I ever had.
 
That’s pretty much the one case where a microphone cluster wouldn’t make sense – at low frequencies, the room completely overwhelms the direct response.
That's exactly where it makes sense in terms of data, you can have an enormous set of data of arrival times at defined and fixed positions and angles including levels!
I don’t think they build products when there isn’t even a single application yet. Admittedly, that’s a chicken-and-egg problem, but why would they develop a product that nobody needs?
That, I agree but let's consider:
Where would miniDSP be without REW (free) or DIRAC (no-free)? I think is time for them to set a minimal platform of their own for support, at least at driver multi-capture level.

Mic arrays like MEMS are out in the market for sometime, they get better by the day and the potential is already known, it won't be long for REW's super people, or similar to figure out ways of integration.
 
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