miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

[Bjorn]

It shouldn't be an issue to combine Dirac with FIR for crossovers in regards to delay. It's unlikley to add more then 7-8 ms of delay and video lipsync can usually be adjusted up to 120 ms or higher.

But this is will be the crucial part of the product IMO. If it's not possible to combine both or miniDSP decides to leave out FIR for crossover completely, it will not be the optimal product for active high-end speakers. At minimum one should be able to use FIR for Xovers and leave out Dirac.

 

[Sokel]

It shouldn't be an issue to combine Dirac with FIR for crossovers in regards to delay. It's unlikley to add more then 7-8 ms of delay and video lipsync can usually be adjusted up to 120 ms or higher.

But this is will be the crucial part of the product IMO. If it's not possible to combine both or miniDSP decides to leave out FIR for crossover completely, it will not be the optimal product for active high-end speakers. At minimum one should be able to use FIR for Xovers and leave out Dirac.

That was my whole point.
I suspect the non-video crowd expects just that (talking from their side as a hard-core audio-only person) .

At another thread I wrote about couple of bass arrays I'm planning to do, a high count channel, single box can come very handy to it (and I don't care a bit about SINAD) as I won;t have the freedom I have at my dedicated, this will only be as minimal and domestic there is in terms of looks.

Would be nice to stuff it somewhere with a bunch of ice modules, heatshinked and all.

 

[Bjorn]

Most likely this will the beginning of DSPs from miniDSP with higher processing power, XLR outputs, analogue inputs and trigger (Flex is limited here). I expect to see for example an 8-channel DSP with the similar CPU and without surround formats. And hopefully with the option of a Dirac licence.

The interesting part is if can combine Dirac and either FIR for Xover or also FIR for other applications. I can see the obvious benefit in using Dirac Art up to 150 Hz area with front speakers and several subwoofers, but still being able to use FIR for manual speaker correction.

 

[Mort]

Dunning-Kruger hits hard in this thread.

You aren't exempt from that bias.

 

[Mort]

So, DIRAC is baked in that no matter what and can be turned off, or what?

No one knows that.

 

[Mort]

I, on the other hand, need more than any current pre/pro offers.

Are you even asking a question or just telling us?

So you don't want a pre-pro.

Ok.

 

[peng]

If we talk dealers and street price, a 10% off is instant for regular normal clients and a lot more for the very loyal ones usually, specially when prices go up the hill.
(plus a bunch of cables for free )
So they must have a decent margin to play with.

As far as I know, minidsp does not offer discounts, not even on Black Fridays. I am sure some dealers might still offer their own discounts at times regardless though I think they would be on rare occasions only.

 

[Sokel]

To tell the truth I have never seen miniDSP at dealers, only at some installers (but they do prefer other gear, this I know for sure, margin must be tight as I suspect) so I have no idea about it.
The flex I got (and returned) was from online European shop at the standard price.

 

[peng]

Small channel count and Dirac ART seems to be 2 ideas at odds. This is where a Tide8 would lose out to an AVR that can do ART. An 11-channel 3800 with ART will run around $2k. Can a Tide8 hope to go below that, include ART, and still make a profit?

Hard to say, they are based in Hong Kong so I know for sure efficiency is top notch in terms of R&D and manufacturing and are located near Shenzhen, China's major electronics manufacturing hub so they have some advantages in the overall manufacturing costs. People there might be highly workaholic , potentially another cost (labor) advantage..

With the Tide product, they finally have to pay licensing fees to the likes of Dolby, DTS etc., but I don't know if dropping the channel count would mean lower fees there as well, we do know Dirac do have variable costs based on stereo vs multichannel so they might also lower the license fees for the Tide 8 version. All just speculation obviously, but I really do want to get a Tide 8 because it will just be for my 2 channel system that I am currently using the HTx. A Tide 8 would also be a good back up (easier to do than using the HTx) for my 7.1.4 HT system. To me, if a Tide 8 is price down to about $2.5 K, it would be very attractive, as that would be the cost of a stupid Cinema 40 here in Canada. Obviously if not for curing OCD/audiophile things, the X3800H is still the value king that a Tide 8 cannot compete with, but, audible or not, I find it hard to resist 118 dB SINAD, that's 12 dB better than the AVM90, AV10, AV20, and I am sure it will beat the Trinnov and Storm Audio AVPs in that department too lol.......

 

[peng]

My question is not about the price but about the full potential.
Other miniDSP's for example can be used either with DIRAC or manual but not both (correct me here if that's not true these days) .

It's a miniDSP so I am quite sure (99%?) that manual will work except the FIR filter part as they might still be disabled/lockout if Dirac license is installed just not used.
According the miniDSP's website info, the rephase FIR tool can be used:

What you will need​

1. The rePhase program. rePhase can be downloaded from the official rephase page.
2. A convolver/filtering engine. For phase linearization, one of:
   • A miniDSP Flex Eight without Dirac Live
   • An OpenDRC-DI and the OpenDRC 2x2 plugin
   • For a linear-phase crossover, one of:
   • A miniDSP 2x4 HD
   • A miniDSP Flex without Dirac Live

So, unless I misunderstood something there, without Dirac Live would mean you did not purchase and install the license, once you have done that, the hardware has Dira Live "baked in". I also don't understand fully what that rePhase program is, but I assume it is the tool for users who want to do their own manual FIR filters. I am further assuming the same that applied to the Flex series also would apply to the Tide series, lots of assumption, sorry.

 

[voodooless]

I haven't looked at cdsp for a while but brutefir had this years ago and still has same problem so are you sure about that?

ie there are 2 delays, that associated with convolution itself and the inherent delay of the filter , partitioning addressees the former not the latter afaik.

You are indeed correct. Because of the non-causal nature, you will need half of the taps to be in the future, and since that is impossible, you'll have to wait for the future to catch up to the present. There is no way to avoid this

 

[Sokel]

find it hard to resist 118 dB SINAD, that's 12 dB better than the AVM90, AV10, AV20, and I am sure it will beat the Trinnov and Storm Audio AVPs in that department too lol.......

And here comes the suspicious me, as the performance remains to be seen with some filters engaged and at real-world scenario.
Flex was also promising but it did 30dB worst than nice analog el. x-overs down low with the same filters, let alone latency (hence the famous thread) .

 

[TimoJ]

And here comes the suspicious me, as the performance remains to be seen with some filters engaged and at real-world scenario.

Sadly actual real-world scenarios are not measured here at ASR. Only theoretical SINAD values... So it remains a mystery how well AVPs/AVRs actually perform when Dirac etc. is enabled and calibrated.

 

[peng]

And here comes the suspicious me, as the performance remains to be seen with some filters engaged and at real-world scenario.
Flex was also promising but it did 30dB worst than nice analog el. x-overs down low with the same filters, let alone latency (hence the famous thread) .

Can you link that measurement please, thank you.

 

[peng]

Sadly actual real-world scenarios are not measured here at ASR. Only theoretical SINAD values... So it remains a mystery how well AVPs/AVRs actually perform when Dirac etc. is enabled and calibrated.

It makes me wonder if such deterioration would occur and more less equally, similarly to all AVPs, AVRs, ie. not just to miniDSP's.

 

[Sokel]

Can you link that measurement please, thank you.

Here:

DSP Measurements and Rising Noise Floor

In several threads related to DSP platforms I've seen requests for measurements with filters engaged. I thought it unlikely that implementing filters in a DSP would have measurable effect on noise / distortion other than the obvious change in the fundamental, however @Sokel recently mentioned...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Note that the measurements at the thread are all digital, through and through, you have to translate that to analog adding the usual sins.

 

[Sokel]

It makes me wonder if such deterioration would occur and more less equally, similarly to all AVPs, AVRs, ie. not just to miniDSP's.

Anything using DSP is a suspect.
The ones we know for sure are impeccable are RME and Fiio (I think, if these are the ones who use DSP dedicated chip).
MiniDSP also applied a partial fix after the thread (and because of it)

We've seen similar hits at Topping's implementation, or Bluesound for example.
There's a nice paper at the thread I linked about filter stacking and precision.

 

[Steakhouse]

…or any other pre/pro on the market for that matter. Hey, it’s a fantastic box and a great value, but it has the same problem that every other pre/pro has.

The problem is two fold:
• It doesn’t have linear phase crossovers (or support for them)
• Its DSP only supports processing at 48hHz
(if there is a unit that has all this, it has to run around $30k or more)

For the average person, neither of these will be a disqualification. Downsampling the digital signal to 48k will probably be inaudible and the phase errors introduced by IIR filters aren’t objectionable (no more so than passive speakers), but this isn’t ideal for a system that will also be used for audio mixing and mastering.

I, on the other hand, need more than any current pre/pro offers. Unless there is something out there I haven’t discovered, my only solution is this:
• Mac Mini with 32GB of RAM and several TB of storage
• MOTU 112D AES interface
• A whole slew of Topping DACs
• Dolby & DTS media players for MKVs
• Apple Mainstage for the main audio frame work software
• FabFilter Pro-Q 4 plugin for linear phase EQ and crossovers
• Other software for routing between apps
• Remote duties will be handled by an iPad
• Somewhere in this will be room correction (haven’t really spent much time considering that)
• Down the line, all of the KEF LS50s will be replaced with biamped DIY speakers and DIY subs. The speakers and subs will be cardioid.

With extra software I can add multiband dynamic expansion, upmixing and ambience generation for enhancing stereo audio.

This will be a fully modular, completely upgradable system with no limitations.

Complex? Yes, very. That is why it’s infinitely upgradable. This is not plug and play.

Expensive? No, actually, not when compared to pre/pros by Storm, Lyngdorf, Trinnov and DigiSat (all start at $20k or much more).

The computer, software, interface and peripherals will be around $4k. Topping’s best Sabre DACs are $700-800 each and outperform any pre/pro.

Again, the Tide 16 is fantastic, but not quite good enough for my very extreme needs.

Imo you are overthinking electronics. Put your thoughts into speakers, bass concept and room acoustics. KEF LS50 are nice but I would not put a singe thought on things like 96KHz DSP or linear phase crossovers unless you upped you speaker game big time.

 

[voodooless]

Here:

DSP Measurements and Rising Noise Floor

In several threads related to DSP platforms I've seen requests for measurements with filters engaged. I thought it unlikely that implementing filters in a DSP would have measurable effect on noise / distortion other than the obvious change in the fundamental, however @Sokel recently mentioned...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Note that the measurements at the thread are all digital, through and through, you have to translate that to analog adding the usual sins.

That is very specific to the SHARC platform (and probably the way MiniDSP uses it), which this new product does not seem to use. So we'll just have to wait and see...

 

[Sokel]

That is very specific to the SHARC platform (and probably the way MiniDSP uses it), which this new product does not seem to use. So we'll just have to wait and see...

We can safely add the ones who do it through XMOS, we seen similar penalties there.
Also, the paper at the end of the thread describes very closely these penalties, regardless of the hardware they use.

Edit: here it is, very old but...

https://firmware-developments.com/WEB/DOC/REF/ZauchaIIR_AES.pdf