miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

[skankhobag]

…or any other pre/pro on the market for that matter. Hey, it’s a fantastic box and a great value, but it has the same problem that every other pre/pro has.

The problem is two fold:
• It doesn’t have linear phase crossovers (or support for them)
• Its DSP only supports processing at 48hHz
(if there is a unit that has all this, it has to run around $30k or more)

For the average person, neither of these will be a disqualification. Downsampling the digital signal to 48k will probably be inaudible and the phase errors introduced by IIR filters aren’t objectionable (no more so than passive speakers), but this isn’t ideal for a system that will also be used for audio mixing and mastering.

I, on the other hand, need more than any current pre/pro offers. Unless there is something out there I haven’t discovered, my only solution is this:
• Mac Mini with 32GB of RAM and several TB of storage
• MOTU 112D AES interface
• A whole slew of Topping DACs
• Dolby & DTS media players for MKVs
• Apple Mainstage for the main audio frame work software
• FabFilter Pro-Q 4 plugin for linear phase EQ and crossovers
• Other software for routing between apps
• Remote duties will be handled by an iPad
• Somewhere in this will be room correction (haven’t really spent much time considering that)
• Down the line, all of the KEF LS50s will be replaced with biamped DIY speakers and DIY subs. The speakers and subs will be cardioid.

With extra software I can add multiband dynamic expansion, upmixing and ambience generation for enhancing stereo audio.

This will be a fully modular, completely upgradable system with no limitations.

Complex? Yes, very. That is why it’s infinitely upgradable. This is not plug and play.

Expensive? No, actually, not when compared to pre/pros by Storm, Lyngdorf, Trinnov and DigiSat (all start at $20k or much more).

The computer, software, interface and peripherals will be around $4k. Topping’s best Sabre DACs are $700-800 each and outperform any pre/pro.

Again, the Tide 16 is fantastic, but not quite good enough for my very extreme needs.

 

[peng]

That’s exactly the same then. Layout looks different, but it looks like a very similar architecture.

I think that’s how they managed to achieve 118 dB SINAD, well above the ES9017’s spec of 110 dB.

 

[voodooless]

I think that’s how they managed to achieve 118 dB SINAD, well above the ES9017’s spec of 110 dB.

Possibly. They don’t specify THD+N for stereo mode in the datasheet. They only say DNR is 4dB better.

any other Stereo DAC would've done the job as well?

Probably. Except that this one of the most economical options from the ESS stables.

 

[peng]

Possibly. They don’t specify THD+N for stereo mode in the datasheet. They only say DNR is 4dB better.


Probably. Except that this one of the most economical options from the ESS stables.

Regardless, in theory fully differential balanced implementation can improve noise by 6 dB, on top of that, it cancels even order harmonics, though it is hard to know how much that would contribute to lowering the THD.

I suspect they will send a sample to Amir, hopefully soon.

 

[Curvature]

I don't work in the industry but I do have an MBA (forgive me if my thinking is different from typical consumer).

Can you give your best guess as to the breakdown of costs and margin in that case?

 

[Sokel]

Can you give your best guess as to the breakdown of costs and margin in that case?

If we talk dealers and street price, a 10% off is instant for regular normal clients and a lot more for the very loyal ones usually, specially when prices go up the hill.
(plus a bunch of cables for free )
So they must have a decent margin to play with.

 

[thcdru2k]

Just got the Flex HTx and on the remote you can only cycle through the sources via the sorce button but I suppose Tide may be different in this aspect. I am planning to return my Flex HTx and get the Tide16 instead even though I only have use for a small subset of the available outputs but I want to be able to get multichannel audio whenever it is available on the TV or TV apps (not just via Apple TV).

minidsp-rs allows you to program direct input switch and even automate it with additional coding. i can switch between usb, analog, toslink etc. Something to consider playing around with until you get the Tide 16

 

[thcdru2k]

Came up with a way to have pseudo websocket API for Flex HTx . Stumbled upon this idea when I noticed my Flex HTx was able to provide input output levels, etc via JSON as long as my 2x4 HD was plugged in. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...h-websocket-telemetry-and-http-control.68962/

 

[EWL5]

Can you give your best guess as to the breakdown of costs and margin in that case?

Audio gear will be wholesaled to someone like a Best Buy for about half the retail price (my prior BB employee discount was 5% above cost so I should know). However, the Dirac licensing has a bit of a wrinkle. Assuming miniDSP gets a $200 break per unit compared to customer bundle pricing ($800), we can assume each license costs miniDSP $600. Half of $3500 is $1750. If we add the $600 back in, then it probably costs miniDSP $2350 per unit so profit is $1150 per unit. It could be more, it could be less. Just pure speculation on my part.

Margins could be tighter because miniDSP is Direct To Consumer (DTC) for the most part.

 

[Keith_W]

You don't want linear-phase filters for any device that is going to be used for AV. And if it DOES have linphase, it will need even more memory to buffer video to compensate for linphase latency.

AFAIK there is only one processor that has linphase AND Dolby Atmos - the DEQX Premate 8 with it's new AV processor. The DEQX has some kind of low latency linphase. When I spoke to Kim Ryrie (founder of DEQX) he said the latency of DEQX is less than 5ms. I said that's impossible, it can't be linphase AND have latency that low unless we are talking very low tap counts + very high sampling rate. I asked him to clarify if he actually meant linphase FIR with high taps to make sure I didn't misunderstand him or that he mis-spoke. He affirmed what he said, and told me "we have a patent for low latency linphase, go look it up. It expired a couple of years ago".

So I did look up the patent. It went over my head. So I provisionally accept that through some kind of mathematical wizardry, such a thing is possible.

As for high sampling rates - maybe there are good reasons to use them if you mix and master. I don't know, i'll have to defer to more knowledgeable people for that one. But for consumer hi-fi, anything above 44.1kHz is inaudible - as you have probably been told many times before.

I have a system very similar to yours. PC + interface + tablet as a control device. The reason it is like this is because there are no affordable linphase DSP units on the market. At the time I assembled the system, there were none at all.

 

[Curvature]

Audio gear will be wholesaled to someone like a Best Buy for about half the retail price (my prior BB employee discount was 5% above cost so I should know). However, the Dirac licensing has a bit of a wrinkle. Assuming miniDSP gets a $200 break per unit compared to customer bundle pricing ($800), we can assume each license costs miniDSP $600. Half of $3500 is $1750. If we add the $600 back in, then it probably costs miniDSP $2350 per unit so profit is $1150 per unit. It could be more, it could be less. Just pure speculation on my part.

Margins could be tighter because miniDSP is Direct To Consumer (DTC) for the most part.

And miniDSP's revenue is entirely hardware sales? There's no service portion?

Either way, I'm assuming their manufacturing is very efficient. They have a large line of products for many applications that in practice are only slightly different from each other. You can't maintain that without strong price controls.

The question is how disruptive a small channel count device would be. There's a lot of pent-up demand for ART. Not that they would achieve much in terms of economies of scale compared to mainstream consumer companies. Maybe the market capture would be important, though.

I don't think software licensing costs will be that high since miniDSP is basically acting as a reseller through bundled hardware. Otherwise I think your breakdown makes sense.

 

[EWL5]

And miniDSP's revenue is entirely hardware sales? There's no service portion?

Either way, I'm assuming their manufacturing is very efficient. They have a large line of products for many applications that in practice are only slightly different from each other. You can't maintain that without strong price controls.

The question is how disruptive a small channel count device would be. There's a lot of pent-up demand for ART. Not that they would achieve much in terms of economies of scale compared to mainstream consumer companies. Maybe the market capture would be important, though.

I don't think software licensing costs will be that high since miniDSP is basically acting as a reseller through bundled hardware. Otherwise I think your breakdown makes sense.

Small channel count and Dirac ART seems to be 2 ideas at odds. This is where a Tide8 would lose out to an AVR that can do ART. An 11-channel 3800 with ART will run around $2k. Can a Tide8 hope to go below that, include ART, and still make a profit?

 

[masterhw]

An 11-channel 3800 with ART will run around $2k. Can a Tide8 hope to go below that, include ART, and still make a profit?

I understand the value argument, but it can be exhausting to see 5.x setups or 7.x setups treated as budget and unworthy of flagship performance. Some people just can’t expand their setup with more spakers, and it’s appreciated to have options for high SINAD performance without buying something with way more channels than I need (and the price to match).

 

[Curvature]

Small channel count and Dirac ART seems to be 2 ideas at odds. This is where a Tide8 would lose out to an AVR that can do ART. An 11-channel 3800 with ART will run around $2k. Can a Tide8 hope to go below that, include ART, and still make a profit?

I don't think we can compare miniDSP to mass market manufacturers and their size, diverse business lines, economies of scale and thin margins at the end of the day.

I understand the value argument, but it can be exhausting to see 5.x setups or 7.x setups treated as budget and unworthy of flagship performance. Some people just can’t expand their setup with more spakers, and it’s appreciated to have options for high SINAD performance without buying something with way more channels than I need (and the price to match).

On top of this, if the addressable market is only very high channel systems, it deliberately cuts out many potential paying customers.

 

[EWL5]

I understand the value argument, but it can be exhausting to see 5.x setups or 7.x setups treated as budget and unworthy of flagship performance. Some people just can’t expand their setup with more spakers, and it’s appreciated to have options for high SINAD performance without buying something with way more channels than I need (and the price to match).

I have a 5.1.2 system with zero full-range speakers and only 1 sub. I wish I could justify ART but I can’t. When I’m ready, I’d still take the 3800 over the closest miniDSP offering but bias is at play.

 

[jeffaegrim]

You don't want linear-phase filters for any device that is going to be used for AV.

[...]
I have a system very similar to yours. PC + interface + tablet as a control device. The reason it is like this is because there are no affordable linphase DSP units on the market. At the time I assembled the system, there were none at all.

Being a user of a PC as a source myself - who uses the system for both audio and video - I always wondered: is there a way to utilize high count linphase filters and somehow correct for the ensuing latency? In the video software, I suppose - but not sure how I would do it globally for the whole computer system. You always seemed to value linear phase filters most, but I never got around to properly trying them due to ringing and the aforementioned latency. Feels like I'm missing out, though

Another way of phrasing that question - is your first statement absolute?

 

[thcdru2k]

Beyond pure performance and price, familiarity builds durable brand loyalty. In audio this often starts in childhood, people tend to favor the brands they grew up hearing in their parents systems. The same dynamic plays out within product ecosystems, miniDSP has created a natural ladder where users start with a 2x4 HD, learn the workflow, and later move up instead of switching brands. That path dependency matters when thinking about market demand and product strategy. I think there are enough 5.1, 5.1.2, 5.2, 7.1, PC systems out there only using a 2x4 HD that could be make a Tide 8 viable assuming they add HDMI 2.1 and maybe streaming/roon capability.

 

[TurtlePaul]

Small channel count and Dirac ART seems to be 2 ideas at odds. This is where a Tide8 would lose out to an AVR that can do ART. An 11-channel 3800 with ART will run around $2k. Can a Tide8 hope to go below that, include ART, and still make a profit?

There is going to be a market for this where the are currently people using the preamp outs of their AVRs to run at least a few channels of higher end amplification. The performance of an AVR doesn't match this as a preamp or high end amps as an amp.

I could imaging people using the Tide8 (or Tide16) with either using the matching 8-channel MiniDSP amp, or something like a six-channel Hypex NC502 amp. In both power and SINAD, it will blow the AVRs out of the market.

I can also see people using these as front ends for McIntosh amps, etc. where people have other setup desires which the AVR market also cannot address.

 

[Keith_W]

Being a user of a PC as a source myself - who uses the system for both audio and video - I always wondered: is there a way to utilize high count linphase filters and somehow correct for the ensuing latency? In the video software, I suppose - but not sure how I would do it globally for the whole computer system. You always seemed to value linear phase filters most, but I never got around to properly trying them due to ringing and the aforementioned latency. Feels like I'm missing out, though

Another way of phrasing that question - is your first statement absolute?

No, my first statement is not absolute. Linear phase filters are undesirable because they add latency. In a video system, that will cause lip sync problems. The solution is to delay the video. In order to do that, you would need a lot of RAM depending on how much latency you need to achieve.

I think that JRiver has a lip sync feature, but I do not know what the maximum delay is. The problem is that not videos can be passed through JRiver, for e.g. if you want to watch a Youtube video or stream from Netflix. I have never tried to find a solution for video, so this is something I am largely ignorant about. If I had to do it, I would simply use minimum-phase. If you (or anybody else) knows of a way to delay ALL video to achieve lip sync, I would love to learn about it.

I don't think that pre-ring is much of a problem. It can be managed so that it is inaudible. AFAIK the only downside of linear-phase that can not be overcome by most of us is its latency.

 

[DavidMcRoy]

Consumer TV sets have adjustable lip sync. I don't know if they can add delay to video or just to audio, though.