miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

[da Choge]

Rather uninspiring but I'm sure it's functional

Looks good; just hoping the inputs can be selected discretely by IR (or other) remote (even if not with their own IR remote).

To me, miniDSP has ALWAYS been about audio; certainly not anything about video. At first, mainly about feeding multiple drivers in custom-designed speaker builds with digital crossover functions. Then they morphed a little into multichannel audio (while still keeping functional applicability for custom speaker designs). I think they have reiterated the same goals with all of their recent component development. But, many of us have been demanding that they go into the multichannel audiovideo market with AVRs/AVPs with both Dolby Atmos and Dirac Room processing capabilities. Well, now they have. And some of us are disappointed that the Tide16 doesn't have all the bells and whistles of SOTA Denon or Marantz components (not to mention higher-end Trinnov, Storm, or, now, Audio Control Hyperion processors), which they never wanted to compete with.

To me, this represents a great SOTA consumer Audio (mainly) multichannel MUSIC processor to be used with Apple TV 4K (looking forward to their 4th edition box, Apple's teasing aside) or my multichannel ROCK USB/HDMI endpoint (so, I don't really care about the Tide16's video capabilities). And, if I can figure out how to integrate the Tide16 with my Denon A110 AVR, for audiovideo functions, so much the better. This is something NEW, folks -- A welcome addition to the miniDSP family! -- Don't know if it will work for me, but looking forward to figuring it out.

 

[markstein]

I think the Marantz AV20 is a good alternative as well for $6000. The Tide16 not just has the older HDMI 2.0 but the older processing chip so no DTS:X pro as well.

I was interested in Tide16 because of the low price, but the older tech has me leaning towards to AV20. I’ll have to assume that miniDSP will update the Tide16 within a few of years.

Now there's even the Marantz AV30 - could be an affordable high end alternative if a more "convential" AVP is sufficient and the very sophisticated routing and filter options of the Tide are not required.

On the Tide I would be missing the full set of current upmixers, especially for use with stereo music.

AV 30 - 11.4-Channel Balanced AV Preamplifier Powered by HEOS™ | Marantz - US

11.4-Channel Balanced AV Preamplifier Powered by HEOS™

www.marantz.com

 

[MI55ION]

Looks good; just hoping the inputs can be selected discretely by IR (or other) remote (even if not with their own IR remote).

To me, miniDSP has ALWAYS been about audio; certainly not anything about video. At first, mainly about feeding multiple drivers in custom-designed speaker builds with digital crossover functions. Then they morphed a little into multichannel audio (while still keeping functional applicability for custom speaker designs). I think they have reiterated the same goals with all of their recent component development. But, many of us have been demanding that they go into the multichannel audiovideo market with AVRs/AVPs with both Dolby Atmos and Dirac Room processing capabilities. Well, now they have. And some of us are disappointed that the Tide16 doesn't have all the bells and whistles of SOTA Denon or Marantz components (not to mention higher-end Trinnov, Storm, or, now, Audio Control Hyperion processors), which they never wanted to compete with.

To me, this represents a great SOTA consumer Audio (mainly) multichannel MUSIC processor to be used with Apple TV 4K (looking forward to their 4th edition box, Apple's teasing aside) or my multichannel ROCK USB/HDMI endpoint (so, I don't really care about the Tide16's video capabilities). And, if I can figure out how to integrate the Tide16 with my Denon A110 AVR, for audiovideo functions, so much the better. This is something NEW, folks -- A welcome addition to the miniDSP family! -- Don't know if it will work for me, but looking forward to figuring it out.

Well you know this reminds me so much of when we used to discuss the merits of AVPs vs AVRs over on another forum around 15 years ago. Not much has changed it seems as some still compare a niche audio focused AVP against more mainstream and well established AVRs. Admittedly we'd all love to have more features but at this cost point? MiniDSP will never win on the features count but I do believe it will perform exceptionally well for audio and for me, that's what matters most. Even if I do have a high end PC that can do 4k@120+fps for the most demanding games, there will be ways around to incorporate it. On the other hand, if my feature packed AVR/AVP with all the latest technology doesn't do top-notch audio as well, then there's nothing more to it other than never being truly satisfied and looking to upgrade next year to latest model with all the other extra new must have features!

 

[Hko]

Looks good; just hoping the inputs can be selected discretely by IR (or other) remote (even if not with their own IR remote).

To me, miniDSP has ALWAYS been about audio; certainly not anything about video. At first, mainly about feeding multiple drivers in custom-designed speaker builds with digital crossover functions. Then they morphed a little into multichannel audio (while still keeping functional applicability for custom speaker designs). I think they have reiterated the same goals with all of their recent component development. But, many of us have been demanding that they go into the multichannel audiovideo market with AVRs/AVPs with both Dolby Atmos and Dirac Room processing capabilities. Well, now they have. And some of us are disappointed that the Tide16 doesn't have all the bells and whistles of SOTA Denon or Marantz components (not to mention higher-end Trinnov, Storm, or, now, Audio Control Hyperion processors), which they never wanted to compete with.

To me, this represents a great SOTA consumer Audio (mainly) multichannel MUSIC processor to be used with Apple TV 4K (looking forward to their 4th edition box, Apple's teasing aside) or my multichannel ROCK USB/HDMI endpoint (so, I don't really care about the Tide16's video capabilities). And, if I can figure out how to integrate the Tide16 with my Denon A110 AVR, for audiovideo functions, so much the better. This is something NEW, folks -- A welcome addition to the miniDSP family! -- Don't know if it will work for me, but looking forward to figuring it out.

In the marketing material there’s a view of the MiniDSP Device Console where there are scenes instead of presets. I hope this is hint that also the input is stored when you save a scene.

 

[PJR918BMW]

Now there's even the Marantz AV30 - could be an affordable high end alternative if a more "convential" AVP is sufficient and the very sophisticated routing and filter options of the Tide are not required.

On the Tide I would be missing the full set of current upmixers, especially for use with stereo music.

AV 30 - 11.4-Channel Balanced AV Preamplifier Powered by HEOS™ | Marantz - US

11.4-Channel Balanced AV Preamplifier Powered by HEOS™

www.marantz.com

Just correct me here. But that particular Marantz is nearly double the money. But more importantly when I was looking for an AVP I read the relevant reviews here on possible Marantz models and some of the actual performance numbers were very poor? Like really poor for a processor?

....and if we're not bothered about that then why are we here. Frankly my hearing aint great anymore but even I was shocked when I used a Wiim Pro for line out compared to the Wiim Pro Plus I had been using. So sometimes it matters? And surely you buy an AVP for the superior sonic performance of you'd just buy an AVR? some of these criticisms are confusing me. I mean it is Chinese but hey we live in a World of peace and harmony now.

 

[markstein]

Just correct me here. But that particular Marantz is nearly double the money. But more importantly when I was looking for an AVP I read the relevant reviews here on possible Marantz models and some of the actual performance numbers were very poor? Like really poor for a processor?

Well, the Marantz AV10 was tested very well, and in case the AV20 and AV30 are only downscaled in terms of number of channels, sound quality should be good.

Marantz AV10 AV Processor Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Marantz AV10 Audio/Video Processor (AVP). It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $7000. My picture doesn't do justice to the nice look of the unit. It is a massive step up from past Marantz AV products. I am still not a fan of the port...

www.audiosciencereview.com

If I had to choose between 10dB better SINAD or additional upmixers for stereo music, I would clearly chose the latter option.

What makes the Tide really unique of course is the large set of manual settings going way beyond what is possible with a "consumer" AVR/AVP. But this is not required for every use case.

 

[peng]

I think I'll like a digital out version over higher sample rate. But that's just me and wishful thinking. Gotta feed them genelecs some unnecessary hot cup of analog free sinad.

Yep, as that would actually be useful to someone who needs it.

The 192 kHz chase, while understandable, is a bit like the >100 dB SINAD chase, it doesn't matter if it's proven that people cannot hear the benefits of sampling rate >=48 kHz (<=44.1 kHz may be..) on all else being equal basis, people still think they could hear better sound quality such as less "ringing", more "air" kind of talks/things. So manufacturers who have marketing staff who know the trick of giving people reasons to believe, they will hear the such benefits and would be willing to pay more for it. miniDSP, as far as I can see, seems to be more engineering inclined and set their priorities on things they know actually contribute to audible benefits, and would give a lower priority to things like higher sampling rate, flagship DAC chips etc., that undoubtedly would help sale, but may be not if it would raise the price a little too high.

 

[peng]

Nevertheless (!), I am very much interested in miniDSP Tide16 as "sync 16-channel pure DAC", I mean 16-channel USB-DAC and/or LAN-DAC (I do not need digital AES/EBU inputs). Tide16 has one ES9842QPRO DAC chip which seems to be capable of sync 16-channel DAC processing in 24-bit 196 kHz, I hope. At least for me, up to 96 kHz (or 88.2 kHz) 24-bit sync 16-channel processing would be enough (ref. #532) at present and in the (near) future, though.

That is not a DAC chip, but an ADC chip.

 

[peng]

Bear with me on this, it's totally off the subject but AI is really beginning to piss me off!

If I understand correctly the, absolute zero possibility of any error, statement by flipmode009 is, in fact, wrong. ( I would agree it is but that's not the point)

ChatGPT et al, when trawling around, will find that statement and factor it in to its "judgement" and comments when responding to queries such as "How good is is the TIde16 with DV? The damn thing will reply something like "most reviewers find the performance exceptional although there are some who state it is not a suitable device for full bit rate DV" or some other nonsense.

Because, it will have "accepted" the absolutely wrong statement by flipmode009 as having merit! And I would guess it uses ASR as a "preference" reference site?

These AI models drive me nuts and I would not trust them to tie one shoe lace! Some of the conversations you can have with them are just mind blowingly ridiculous! They get basic stuff wrong time after time.. they are about as close to AI as I am to 100m Olympic Champion. I'm 65..

Again flipmode009 I am not having a pop at you! And I am sure the mods will delete this but I feel better now!

I felt the same in the beginning, but then I realized in order to get them to work well, one has to ask questions in certain ways, or try different ways. Don't just accept their first response if there is any doubts of even hints of them simply referencing to internet hearsay such as those from us members on ASR, but insist they they only reference to reputable, proven credible sources, then they typically would come back with more accurate answers, even apologize for their mistakes in their first response. Given that, I think with more "training", they might evolve into something more useful to most people. As it is now, I think a lot of inexperienced users would get misled, unfortunately.

 

[peng]

Looks good; just hoping the inputs can be selected discretely by IR (or other) remote (even if not with their own IR remote).

To me, miniDSP has ALWAYS been about audio; certainly not anything about video. At first, mainly about feeding multiple drivers in custom-designed speaker builds with digital crossover functions. Then they morphed a little into multichannel audio (while still keeping functional applicability for custom speaker designs). I think they have reiterated the same goals with all of their recent component development. But, many of us have been demanding that they go into the multichannel audiovideo market with AVRs/AVPs with both Dolby Atmos and Dirac Room processing capabilities. Well, now they have. And some of us are disappointed that the Tide16 doesn't have all the bells and whistles of SOTA Denon or Marantz components (not to mention higher-end Trinnov, Storm, or, now, Audio Control Hyperion processors), which they never wanted to compete with.

To me, this represents a great SOTA consumer Audio (mainly) multichannel MUSIC processor to be used with Apple TV 4K (looking forward to their 4th edition box, Apple's teasing aside) or my multichannel ROCK USB/HDMI endpoint (so, I don't really care about the Tide16's video capabilities). And, if I can figure out how to integrate the Tide16 with my Denon A110 AVR, for audiovideo functions, so much the better. This is something NEW, folks -- A welcome addition to the miniDSP family! -- Don't know if it will work for me, but looking forward to figuring it out.

Agreed, very audio focus, just look at the fact that they again, use a total of 64 channels of DAC to implement what they called "fully differential" scheme. People on forums like to say it is not the DAC IC that is important, but implementation, yet those are typically more often than not, giving manufacturers excuses to use lower spec ICs, but miniDSP actually focus on implementation.

Someone mentioned Tide 8, I think they might just do that, for one thing, a Tide 8 would almost certainly be able to do 96 kHz sampling rate or even higher, and it would be very easy for them to do it quickly given that they have already launch the Tide 16. It's not that I believe in the benefit of sampling rate higher than 48 kHz but I think many of their potential buyers do so it could be good business for them. A Tide 8 may be able to get the price down to below the $3,000 mark, hopefully.

I assume many of us have been hoping to have something that could compete with AVPs and AVRs from the far East including China, we now have one, finally, surely there will be more. Given the popularity of the EVs made from there, it probably won't take long to see more such competing products, pressure may be on for the big brands including D+M, even Sony and Yamaha to work harder.

 

[mglobe]

Looks good; just hoping the inputs can be selected discretely by IR (or other) remote (even if not with their own IR remote).
…

With the Flex and others, the inputs and profile can be selected directly using MiniDSP-RS, which can be tied to various hid’s. So very likely you’ll be able to

 

[Hko]

With the Flex and others, the inputs and profile can be selected directly using MiniDSP-RS, which can be tied to various hid’s. So very likely you’ll be able to

Just got the Flex HTx and on the remote you can only cycle through the sources via the sorce button but I suppose Tide may be different in this aspect. I am planning to return my Flex HTx and get the Tide16 instead even though I only have use for a small subset of the available outputs but I want to be able to get multichannel audio whenever it is available on the TV or TV apps (not just via Apple TV).

 

[EWL5]

On the other hand, I could simply be a little more patient and eventually a low channel count DAC with ART will be released.

Very unlikely. The full suite of Dirac products costs ~$800 as a regular price bundle. miniDSP would get a discount for buying multiple licenses as an OEM but how significant a decrease in price are you thinking for say a theoretical Tide8?

I think it's unlikely that such a product would exist w/o removing Dirac altogether to make a decent profit (miniDSP is not a volume seller like D&M)! The fact that all the Dirac licenses are included on the Tide16 is its competitive advantage.

 

[Curvature]

Very unlikely. The full suite of Dirac products costs ~$800 as a regular price bundle. miniDSP would get a discount for buying multiple licenses as an OEM but how significant a decrease in price are you thinking for say a theoretical Tide8?

I think it's unlikely that such a product would exist w/o removing Dirac altogether to make a decent profit (miniDSP is not a volume seller like D&M)! The fact that all the Dirac licenses are included on the Tide16 is its competitive advantage.

Tide16 is 3500 USD? Tide8 for 2000-2500.

 

[abdo123]

HDMI 2.0??!!!!

No Dolby vision ??!!!

Yeah this thing is dead on arrival

 

[Lsc]

Very unlikely. The full suite of Dirac products costs ~$800 as a regular price bundle. miniDSP would get a discount for buying multiple licenses as an OEM but how significant a decrease in price are you thinking for say a theoretical Tide8?

I think it's unlikely that such a product would exist w/o removing Dirac altogether to make a decent profit (miniDSP is not a volume seller like D&M)! The fact that all the Dirac licenses are included on the Tide16 is its competitive advantage.

Yes this is a big deal and is what puts the Tide16 in the running. Effective cost of the Tide16 is $2700 + 800 for ART. Clearly miniDSP will need to update the hdmi along with the processing chip but this is the unfortunate result when a product release gets delayed.

Looks like their plan is to sell it as they built it for a low price then update. I can see them modularly updating the HDMI but not so much the processor.

 

[EWL5]

Tide8 for 2000-2500.

That's w/o Dirac, right? I don't see how they make money if it includes ART.

 

[EWL5]

Yes this is a big deal and is what puts the Tide16 in the running. Effective cost of the Tide16 is $2700 + 800 for ART. Clearly miniDSP will need to update the hdmi along with the processing chip but this is the unfortunate result when a product release gets delayed.

Looks like their plan is to sell it as they built it for a low price then update. I can see them modularly updating the HDMI but not so much the processor.

Don't expect discounts anytime soon. miniDSP needs to recoup their R&D design cost.

Is it confirmed the HDMI board is replaceable by consumer?

 

[Curvature]

That's w/o Dirac, right? I don't see how they make money if it includes ART.

Do you work in the industry? Can you breakdown pricing end to end, including licensing? I'd like to understand.

 

[Lsc]

Don't expect discounts anytime soon. miniDSP needs to recoup their R&D design cost.

Is it confirmed the HDMI board is replaceable by consumer?

It has not been confirmed. That’s my guess from it being “modular”.