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miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD
Keith_W
Master Contributor
It is in no way an "alternative" to a Merging Hapi. The two are different products for different markets. For our market, and for our intentions, the MiniDSP is a vastly superior product.
The Hapi is a pro audio DAC/ADC/interface with no built-in DSP. Its real strength is its robustness, flexibility, and audio over IP (AOIP). It has Ravenna, but newer versions also support Dante. It can do things that the MiniDSP can only dream of - you can gang together a dozen of these things and get hundreds of DAC channels, it will work with any Dante/Ravenna device (and there are hundreds of them!), you can network many of them and supply audio to a whole stadium or airport, you can route any input to any output. And of course, it has DSD capabilities for those who believe in DSD. But very few of these features are relevant for us home users. To get it to work for home DSP, you need to add a PC. If you want to do something simple, let's say, switch from listening to streaming to listening to your turntable, you have to reconfigure the routing before you can listen. The weakness isn't the device itself, it's the PC that you have to add to make it a functional DSP unit. The other weakness is the complexity of ANEMAN (Merging's network audio manager). When you get it to work, it's rock solid. But the problem is getting the damned thing to work.
The MiniDSP is a device designed from the ground up for our market. It does not have many of the Hapi features, but that's because we do not need them. Switching inputs from streaming to ADC would probably be as simple as pushing a button on a remote. There is no need to keep a PC in the signal chain, you can use any consumer electronics that you like. And no PC means no PC related problems. Every time my PC prompts me to update Windows, I have that little bit of anxiety that my audio chain will be broken after it reboots. No such anxiety with a MiniDSP.
Merging's customer support is excellent. I know from first hand experience. MiniDSP is good, but nowhere close. They'll point you to their forums where you can get some help. It's better than nothing, but it's not as good as being able to exchange emails with an actual human who does not give you canned AI responses. If you are building a studio or have a large audio project, Merging is second to none. But we aren't doing that, so in our case the convenience features of MiniDSP wins.
If you want DSD converted to LPCM, the conversion has to happen at the source or via a device that sits directly in the audio chain, not via the Apple TV on a different HDMI port. If ATV is connected to a regular HDMI input in TV it's basically one way communication. Latency in general is nothing modern TVs cannot account for though.
Thank you @Keith_W for your thoughts and detailed descriptions!
At least in my case which you know quite well, however, 99.5 % of my music listening enjoyments is just listening to my local SSD digital music library tracks consists of ripped CDs (90 %, ca. 3,600 discs, photo ref. here), other download-purchased tracks, some video clips, as well as ca. 500 digitized vinyl LPs (digital music library organization, ref. here). I seldom listen-to/watch streaming services or TV channels even though I can do these in multichannel my audio-visual setup.
Consequently, I like to stick to my present almost established PC(Windows)-DSP-based multichannel multi-SP-driver multi-amplifier full-active stereo audio setup (latest system ref. here and here). This means I shall stick to simple multichannel DAC units like OKTO DAC8PRO which I use now.
Presently, my system is 2-way 10-channel with L&R subwoofer, woofer, midrange, tweeter and super-tweeter; since I use 8-Ch DAC8PRO, now tweeter and super-tweeter are fed CH-7(L)+Ch-8(R) of DAC8PRO and I use BEHRINGER DS2800 XLR splitter/distributor to drive tweeter and super-tweeter by independent two amplifiers (ref. here). This is one of the main reasons for my demand of 12-Ch to 16-Ch pure multichannel DAC unit capable of up to 192 kHz 24-bit with balanced XLR outs, just like @Kal Rubinson is doing with Merging HAPI + two of DA8/DA8P DAC board.
Furthermore, recently I become much interested in the robust and wide-bandwidth ethernet audio protocols including AEC67, Dante, Diretta, Ravenna, etc.
In my powerful Xeon-CPU test Windows workstation upstairs, I have already installed Dante, Diretta, Ravenna ASIO-LAN drivers (to be used in dedicated IPv6 closed ethernet LAN chain with added 2-port 5 GB LAN card) and confirmed that JRiver MC, VB-MATRIX and EKIO recognize these ASIO-LAN drivers properly. At present, however, I have no multichannel DAC unit having these LAN-connection capabilities...
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MI55ION
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Up until quite recently I would've agreed without hesitation but with the latest update to Dirac Live Processor (for PC)/Dirac Live and a fresh calibration I actually prefer full correction. I'm always tinkering and learning new stuff so who knows things might change but the latest version has done a brilliant job of keeping it sounding natural.
MI55ION
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nothingman
Senior Member
I guarantee you no one is buying a $3500 miniDSP product by accident and without knowing the spec sheet. MiniDSP are basically invisible to anyone but hobbyists, pro installers, and audiophiles. People buy Denon/Marantz/Onkyo etc AVRs without knowing the specs because it was sitting on the shelf at a Magnolia in a Best Buy with a sale sticker on it. Not ever going to happen here.
jeffaegrim
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I mean... it decodes atmos and has 16 channels of (presumably) clean pre-amplification that you can apply DSP to. That's something. Afaik it is the first time ART has been available on something other than an AVR, so a pretty big deal imo.
Regarding your question: I have been made aware that DTS is available on the new minidsp platform, which points to the inclusion of DTS Neural X. That's actually pretty awesome, as that would also be (from my recollection) the first time one of those proprietary algorithms ended up on a device that isn't an AVR/AV processor.
(I was speaking of upmixing via software btw, not conventional "matrix" upmixing that could have also been done on older minidsp devices - just with less channels)
Curvature
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For those who cannot allow compromise anywhere, there are Storm, Focal, Bryston, etc. The rest have to make tradeoffs.
I think the Marantz AV20 is a good alternative as well for $6000. The Tide16 not just has the older HDMI 2.0 but the older processing chip so no DTS:X pro as well.
I was interested in Tide16 because of the low price, but the older tech has me leaning towards to AV20. I’ll have to assume that miniDSP will update the Tide16 within a few of years.
MiniDSP never intended to compete with stormaudio / trinnov in my opinion. If you can afford stormaudio/trinnov you most likely do not have mismatched speakers/subs or an asymmetrical room as well. Tide 16 is for those who have unique systems/unique rooms, finite budgets, hobbyist tinkerers who have a desire to get everything they can get out of their current systems within reasonable costs.
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Who said it does?
ban25 and flipmode009
Curvature
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Way too many functions, inputs and outputs I would never use.
For me it's either a 4-channel DAC with ART on my computer (a silent PC in my living room for all video and audio) or something like the Tide16. The channel count is overkill, but I don't mind compromising and paying for more than what I need in one aspect when all others are in line. I'm very comfortable with the manual work of measurement and EQ, but there is no way to do impulse response correction outside of Dirac's proprietary tech as far as I know.
On the other hand, I could simply be a little more patient and eventually a low channel count DAC with ART will be released.
I also do not use much of what a typical AVR brings to the table, 90% of the inputs and output I have literally never touched. The Tide16 would streamline much of what I would need in a home theather on the audio side of things to a singular and smaller box.
I still think that a hypothetical Tide8 would be interesting to a lot of people, including myself. I don't really plan on needing more than 8 channels ever given my current apartment living situation. And since the modular boards are designed that way, the only thing MiniDSP would really need to do is change the mechanical form factor of the box to support half the amount of output channels, which would bring the price down to be even more accessible.
The HDMI complaints are minor IMO, sure I would like more ports and HDMI2.1 too, but eARC is perfectly fine for 99% of use cases given this is a niche and enthusiast device. There are HDMI switch and breakout boxes that people can get if they do not have enough ports on their TV etc.
I still think that a hypothetical Tide8 would be interesting to a lot of people, including myself. I don't really plan on needing more than 8 channels ever given my current apartment living situation. And since the modular boards are designed that way, the only thing MiniDSP would really need to do is change the mechanical form factor of the box to support half the amount of output channels, which would bring the price down to be even more accessible.
The HDMI complaints are minor IMO, sure I would like more ports and HDMI2.1 too, but eARC is perfectly fine for 99% of use cases given this is a niche and enthusiast device. There are HDMI switch and breakout boxes that people can get if they do not have enough ports on their TV etc.
Well, they are wrong. They conflate issues with a specific device with HDMI bandwidth limitations.
Even 12bit 4:4:4 4K/24 will easily work at only about half of the available bandwidth. Only if you go to 48 fps, you’ll run into compatibility issues.
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Tom C
Major Contributor
Literally, two days before I found this same announcement in my email, I bought a Marantz AV10. The unit arrived just this afternoon. I was delighted with the price I got, but this is still more affordable. For a 9.6.1 system, Dirac ART included, the price is quite reasonable. Even after tariff applied, I expect it to be competitive.
MI55ION
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Will you be keeping the Marantz now?