miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

[EWL5]

Has anyone documented a cross term limit on these Tide16s yet?

 

[BJL]

Seems more of a concern if each channel you have is truly capable of contributing controlled bass. Not sure if there is enough information to determine if Tide 16 can handle the worst case scenario of all outputs being used and every channel being capable full range response and utilized as a support channel.

All this fuss and bother over capabilities.

As far as the Tide 16 is concerned (the actual subject of this thread): I have mine set up as 9.1.6 with Dirac ART, with all speakers providing support to other speakers, (other than the center which I left alone) and it works just fine. I've had it long enough to watch 3 or 4 UHD movies from disc and there are absolutely zero audio synchronization ("lip sync") latency problems. I watched a couple of shows on Apple TV via the eARC input and every worked perfectly as well. I've listened to music in everything from mono to Atmos, and it works perfectly with one exception (there seems to be a bug for 4.0/5.0 PCM from DVD-A and SACD.)

ART was super easy to set up, just slightly tedious, following along in the manual. It took an hour, more or less, including measurements (9 positions) The online manual for the Tide is quite good, and following the manual patiently gives a great result. Maybe someday if I'm bored I'll tweak the ART filters - maybe - if I'm bored and want something to do. I wanted to change the low frequency cut off points, but having experienced it as default, as I said, only if I'm bored.

I don't know anything about the under the hood details. I've noticed reference to "cross term limits" including the comment by @EWL5 above, and I have no idea what that means or why I should even care. I suppose eventually there will be bench tests on the theoretical and practical limits of the analog output quality, but from my point of view, the Tide is a carefully and thoughtfully engineered (and built) AVP that does exactly what it claims, and sounds great. There are a few bugs, such as the one I mentioned, which are documented and discussed at the miniDSP community forum, and which miniDSP DevTeam have been diligently working to eliminate. This is a very new device, and so it is not surprising that there are some bugs to iron out.

As to other brand AVR/AVPs, I assume that they also work because they are certified to do so. Whether they work well, without creating undue latency (for example), I presume will become apparent over time if/when customers complain on forums such ASR.

 

[john61ct]

All this fuss and bother over capabilities.
...
I don't know anything about the under the hood details.

But others here do want to know, with actual numbers.

The question at hand is, what is the Tap Count limit for LF FIR linear phase processing?

Maybe it's high enough no mere mortal would ever hit it, aka "unlimited"

Personally at this pricing I would expect the same processing power for convolving as a modern PC you can buy for a grand U$D.

But that is likely not the case, maybe a tenth of that.

Of course that metric is just one factor, perhaps minor to most prospects.

 

[BJL]

But others here do want to know, with actual numbers.

The question at hand is, what is the Tap Count limit for LF FIR linear phase processing?

Maybe it's high enough no mere mortal would ever hit it, aka "unlimited"

Personally at this pricing I would expect the same processing power for convolving as a modern PC you can buy for a grand U$D.

But that is likely not the case, maybe a tenth of that.

Of course that metric is just one factor, perhaps minor to most prospects.

Are there any $1,000 computers that will play back a UHD disc with 16 channels of Dirac ART processing, Atmos/dts:X decoding, provide a matrix mixers and 16 channels of PEQ?

 

[EWL5]

All this fuss and bother over capabilities.

As far as the Tide 16 is concerned (the actual subject of this thread): I have mine set up as 9.1.6 with Dirac ART, with all speakers providing support to other speakers, (other than the center which I left alone) and it works just fine. I've had it long enough to watch 3 or 4 UHD movies from disc and there are absolutely zero audio synchronization ("lip sync") latency problems. I watched a couple of shows on Apple TV via the eARC input and every worked perfectly as well. I've listened to music in everything from mono to Atmos, and it works perfectly with one exception (there seems to be a bug for 4.0/5.0 PCM from DVD-A and SACD.)

ART was super easy to set up, just slightly tedious, following along in the manual. It took an hour, more or less, including measurements (9 positions) The online manual for the Tide is quite good, and following the manual patiently gives a great result. Maybe someday if I'm bored I'll tweak the ART filters - maybe - if I'm bored and want something to do. I wanted to change the low frequency cut off points, but having experienced it as default, as I said, only if I'm bored.

I don't know anything about the under the hood details. I've noticed reference to "cross term limits" including the comment by @EWL5 above, and I have no idea what that means or why I should even care. I suppose eventually there will be bench tests on the theoretical and practical limits of the analog output quality, but from my point of view, the Tide is a carefully and thoughtfully engineered (and built) AVP that does exactly what it claims, and sounds great. There are a few bugs, such as the one I mentioned, which are documented and discussed at the miniDSP community forum, and which miniDSP DevTeam have been diligently working to eliminate. This is a very new device, and so it is not surprising that there are some bugs to iron out.

As to other brand AVR/AVPs, I assume that they also work because they are certified to do so. Whether they work well, without creating undue latency (for example), I presume will become apparent over time if/when customers complain on forums such ASR.

Cross terms tell you how much support is possible for your current setup. Generally speaking, the more speakers you have in support, the more cross terms are required.
The prior behavior used to tell you if you were close to the limit if you were approaching it (recent firmware may have changed this).

What are the colored dots I sometimes see when editing the support levels in ART? | Dirac Live Active Room Treatment

The dots always represent the number of cross terms the group costs to use as a support. If the group is being used as support, the dots will be on the left, on the support range indicator (between the handles if they are visible). If it is not, they will be on the right in a small...

helpdesk.dirac.com

 

[EWL5]

Are there any $1,000 computers that will play back a UHD disc with 16 channels of Dirac ART processing, Atmos/dts:X decoding, provide a matrix mixers and 16 channels of PEQ?

Your Tide16 didn't stop at $1000 so why did you cap the computer at that price?

Discussion is more compelling now that a PC can be used as a Dirac ART processor!

 

[thcdru2k]

All this fuss and bother over capabilities.

As far as the Tide 16 is concerned (the actual subject of this thread): I have mine set up as 9.1.6 with Dirac ART, with all speakers providing support to other speakers, (other than the center which I left alone) and it works just fine. I've had it long enough to watch 3 or 4 UHD movies from disc and there are absolutely zero audio synchronization ("lip sync") latency problems. I watched a couple of shows on Apple TV via the eARC input and every worked perfectly as well. I've listened to music in everything from mono to Atmos, and it works perfectly with one exception (there seems to be a bug for 4.0/5.0 PCM from DVD-A and SACD.)

ART was super easy to set up, just slightly tedious, following along in the manual. It took an hour, more or less, including measurements (9 positions) The online manual for the Tide is quite good, and following the manual patiently gives a great result. Maybe someday if I'm bored I'll tweak the ART filters - maybe - if I'm bored and want something to do. I wanted to change the low frequency cut off points, but having experienced it as default, as I said, only if I'm bored.

I don't know anything about the under the hood details. I've noticed reference to "cross term limits" including the comment by @EWL5 above, and I have no idea what that means or why I should even care. I suppose eventually there will be bench tests on the theoretical and practical limits of the analog output quality, but from my point of view, the Tide is a carefully and thoughtfully engineered (and built) AVP that does exactly what it claims, and sounds great. There are a few bugs, such as the one I mentioned, which are documented and discussed at the miniDSP community forum, and which miniDSP DevTeam have been diligently working to eliminate. This is a very new device, and so it is not surprising that there are some bugs to iron out.

As to other brand AVR/AVPs, I assume that they also work because they are certified to do so. Whether they work well, without creating undue latency (for example), I presume will become apparent over time if/when customers complain on forums such ASR.

Sounds like it's more of a concern for those Denon/Marantz implementations mentioned earlier and not the Tide16. I would like to migrate over to Tide16 eventually. With their API control / infinite presets I can imagine a lot of cool implementations beyond default settings. It would be possible to make your own DynamicEQ that many people love about Denon even automate it to volume level.

 

[BJL]

Cross terms tell you how much support is possible for your current setup. Generally speaking, the more speakers you have in support, the more cross terms are required.
The prior behavior used to tell you if you were close to the limit if you were approaching it (recent firmware may have changed this).

What are the colored dots I sometimes see when editing the support levels in ART? | Dirac Live Active Room Treatment

The dots always represent the number of cross terms the group costs to use as a support. If the group is being used as support, the dots will be on the left, on the support range indicator (between the handles if they are visible). If it is not, they will be on the right in a small...

helpdesk.dirac.com

Thank you for that reference. I will open my Dirac file in the next day or two and look at the dots, for the fun of it.

 

[BJL]

Your Tide16 didn't stop a $1000 so why did you cap the computer at that price?

Discussion is more compelling now that a PC can be used as a Dirac ART processor!

Because somebody above made a reference to a $1,000 computer. It's not really important to this Tide discussion. I should have ignored the comment.

 

[EWL5]

Because somebody above made a reference to a $1,000 computer. It's not really important to this Tide discussion. I should have ignored the comment.

To be fair, I think that poster was talking about processing power (cpu) in a $1k computer, which is plenty to handle DSP duties. The Quad-Core ARM processor in the Tide16 is commonly found on smartphones, tablets, smart TVs, etc.

 

[welwynnick]

Are there any $1,000 computers that will play back a UHD disc with 16 channels of Dirac ART processing, Atmos/dts:X decoding, provide a matrix mixers and 16 channels of PEQ?

It is possible to perform Atmos decoding in a PC, but it's not exactly a domestic solution, and it's much better done with a player or streamer plus an AVP.
You need to extract the files from a BD disc, process them, do some manipulation, then play the files. It's really oriented around audio playback, and if you want to play video, you need to synchronise it manually yourself (and good luck keeping it synchronised). So not really viable. Read the several articles by The Computer Audiophile:

https://audiophilestyle.com/ca/immersive/cavernize-another-option-for-extracting-lossless-truehd-dolby-atmos-files-r1406/?&tab=comments#comment-1331688

How To Decode and Play Dolby TrueHD Atmos on Windows and macOS

Yes, you read the title correctly. Here is a little background and all the information you'll need to decode and play lossless Dolby TrueHD with Atmos on a Windows or macOS computer, without the need for HDMI output. Housekeeping There are two codecs used with Dolby Atmos content. Lossy - Dolby D...

audiophilestyle.com

Similarly it is just about possible to play 4k BDs on a PC, but anyone who's done it says get a player instead.
Shame really.

 

[grigorescu]

Mine has been stuck in Memphis for 9 days now. My next step is to call Customs to see what they have to say.

Reddit has an interesting discussion of this including contact numbers.

https://www.reddit.com/r/FedEx/comments/1sdznrl/read_this_if_you_havea_a_customs_issue

At present I would not order directly from MiniDSP. They seem to be unable to fix this problem.

I would order from a US source like Deer Creek.

I know I’m a bit late here, but just my experience:

It seems like miniDSP is doing something incorrectly with their shipping. I provided my SSN at checkout, but it didn’t get sent to FedEx the right way, so it still kicked out a customs hold and a “Shipment requires importer's registration/identification number for clearance. (Examples include EIN, SSN, VAT, GST, RFC, etc.)” error.

Note that even if they had provided it, if this is your first time importing something over $2500, you still need to submit paperwork to CBP with your info.

I was watching the tracking carefully, and about 12 hours before the status changed to a customs delay, I noticed a Customer Exception Request Number (CER) show up on the detailed tracking page. I called them on the phone, they told me they needed form 5106, and that someone should e-mail me a docusign “in a few days.”

I ignored that, downloaded the official form from the IRS website, filled it out, and emailed it to [email protected] (subject line just my tracking number, empty body, just the PDF attached). 10 hours later, I got an automated reply that it had been processed, and about 12 hours after that, it cleared customs. So all in all, a bit less than a 24 hours delay.

As a first-time importer, it’s possible that had I just sent the form earlier, there would have been no delay at all.

 

[BJL]

Cross terms tell you how much support is possible for your current setup. Generally speaking, the more speakers you have in support, the more cross terms are required.
The prior behavior used to tell you if you were close to the limit if you were approaching it (recent firmware may have changed this).

What are the colored dots I sometimes see when editing the support levels in ART? | Dirac Live Active Room Treatment

The dots always represent the number of cross terms the group costs to use as a support. If the group is being used as support, the dots will be on the left, on the support range indicator (between the handles if they are visible). If it is not, they will be on the right in a small...

helpdesk.dirac.com

Well, I went looking for dots and the only dots I could find are the three little dots on the left of each group (the long panel on the right side of the screen), the dots that you click to open the support group. Those dots were not colored as described in the Dirac article. They are gray on my Tide. I don't know what that means, if anything, and I don't know if I found the right dots or if there are secret dots somewhere that I couldn't find.

Thanks for the reference anyway. I sent a comment to Dirac suggesting that they illustrate the article with an example screenshot to help people like me who are not well educated on this subject.

 

[EWL5]

Well, I went looking for dots and the only dots I could find are the three little dots on the left of each group (the long panel on the right side of the screen), the dots that you click to open the support group. Those dots were not colored as described in the Dirac article. They are gray on my Tide. I don't know what that means, if anything, and I don't know if I found the right dots or if there are secret dots somewhere that I couldn't find.

Thanks for the reference anyway. I sent a comment to Dirac suggesting that they illustrate the article with an example screenshot to help people like me who are not well educated on this subject.

That most likely means you're nowhere near the limit for the Tide16's cross terms!

 

[BJL]

That most likely means you're nowhere near the limit for the Tide16's cross terms!

If so, that answers some questions raised about the capacity of the Tide, as I have all 16 channels in use, and left the Dirac default, which has all 16 speakers supporting each other. I really should do some ART filter refining . . .

 

[Mort]

Sooooo... I overlooked two things in going for my digital setup with the Audiopraise VanityPro and Genelec GLM.

1) I need to boost GLM's bass beyond what GLM permits. When I was 2 channel digital, I used a Wiim upstream and I could add a lowshelf to the bass that way. But I can't get anything upstream that allows PEQ.

2) I can't measure anything. It's impossible for me to get in the chain anywhere and do some room testing with REW.



After a few months, I'm less enthusiastic with my digital system. I may go back to analog.

 

[MKR]

Sooooo... I overlooked two things in going for my digital setup with the Audiopraise VanityPro and Genelec GLM.

1) I need to boost GLM's bass beyond what GLM permits. When I was 2 channel digital, I used a Wiim upstream and I could add a lowshelf to the bass that way. But I can't get anything upstream that allows PEQ.

2) I can't measure anything. It's impossible for me to get in the chain anywhere and do some room testing with REW.



After a few months, I'm less enthusiastic with my digital system. I may go back to analog.

I am not exactly certain of all the details of your system, but generally speaking I am running into similar issues with my Hypex Fusion based system. I love running direct digital from a Wiim Pro, but there are so many quirks and idiosyncrasies. It’s definitely not user friendly as it it is driving with analog. I swear system sounds better with direct digital than analog, but maybe my brain is fooling me into thinking so

 

[Mort]

I am not exactly certain of all the details of your system, but generally speaking I am running into similar issues with my Hypex Fusion based system. I love running direct digital from a Wiim Pro, but there are so many quirks and idiosyncrasies. It’s definitely not user friendly as it it is driving with analog. I swear system sounds better with direct digital than analog, but maybe my brain is fooling me into thinking so

I actually think the digital is worse. There are so many artifacts. Mostly it doesn't bother me though. I definitely could not tell the difference, although digital carries full amplification of the genelec system and analog usually only gets a fraction of that based on input Vrms.

 

[MKR]

I actually think the digital is worse. There are so many artifacts. Mostly it doesn't bother me though. I definitely could not tell the difference, although digital carries full amplification of the genelec system and analog usually only gets a fraction of that based on input Vrms.

Interesting. What I did notice is the highs are a bit harsh with digital input with some recordings. My theory is the digital is more transparent to the recording. Good recordings sound glorious though. But, maybe this is some artifacts similar to what you heard. Tough to know for sure.

Not sure what you mean by “digital carries full amplification”?

Anyway, I will most likely make the switch back to analog, it is much more user friendly in a complex system like mine (4 speaker system, with the mains being 5-ways with two Hypex each to cover all the channels) … all the headache not worth the perceived/subjective subtle improvement. Interestingly Hypex themselves recommends digital input for the highest fidelity.

 

[Sean_S]

Interesting. What I did notice is the highs are a bit harsh with digital input with some recordings. My theory is the digital is more transparent to the recording. Good recordings sound glorious though. But, maybe this is some artifacts similar to what you heard. Tough to know for sure.

If the data is at a lower sample rate, perhaps the Genelec D/A was/is clipping on inter-sample peaks. ??? If so, adjusting the input sensitivity level lower by 3db or so in GLM might help.