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miniDSP Tide16 - Holy Grail with 16 Channel Atmos/DTS:X, high SINAD

More to prevent unfair comparisons to other AVPs that handle HDMI 2.1 properly. I feel like if AVP is emphasized; people knock on what the Tide 16 is really capable of.
Oh, I understand. I noticed all those debates going on for some pages. I don't have any sources that require HDMI 2.1, and if I had one, I would just connect directly to my monitor and use eARC, so I don't actually get all the fuss, but whatever, you are right if someone wants an AVP that supports HDMI 2.1 directly, they should look elsewhere. There is no way to make everyone happy, apparently.

I'm more curious to find out if the test bench measurement of the Tide confirm the published specs. I also wonder if in some cases it might be better to, for example, connect a UHD player directly to the monitor and send audio to the Tide, as opposed to the usual connecting to the AVP and sending video out to the TV. Someday when I have some time to kill I will experiment.
 
Oh, I understand. I noticed all those debates going on for some pages. I don't have any sources that require HDMI 2.1, and if I had one, I would just connect directly to my monitor and use eARC, so I don't actually get all the fuss, but whatever, you are right if someone wants an AVP that supports HDMI 2.1 directly, they should look elsewhere. There is no way to make everyone happy, apparently.

I'm more curious to find out if the test bench measurement of the Tide confirm the published specs. I also wonder if in some cases it might be better to, for example, connect a UHD player directly to the monitor and send audio to the Tide, as opposed to the usual connecting to the AVP and sending video out to the TV. Someday when I have some time to kill I will experiment.
100% agree with all that.
HDMI 2.1 wasn't on my radar until the Tide16 was announced back in January (post #1) and everyone started bleating about it. Never realised there was any need at all.
Then I found there were dozens of good HDMI 2.1 switches that could off-load the PC & console source selection, and many of them had eARC.
It occurred to me that not having HDMI 2.1 was actually an advantage in some respects :
  • An AVP with HDMI 2.0, plus an HDMI 2.1 switch, is cheaper than an AVP with HDMI 2.1.
  • Changing the switch to keep up to date with ever-evolving video interface standards makes more sense than updating the AVP every time.
  • Using eARC to connect the switch to the AVP means that video never enters the AVP, which stops high frequency noise and interference, witness the high performance that Amir measured on the Luxsin X9 Smart Stereo DAC & Preamp when using the ARC input. This is the same as USB, and is much better than any device has ever achieved with conventional HDMI input.

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I know some people don't agree with this for good reasons, but I don't care, this is AUDIO Science Forum.
 
100% agree with all that.
HDMI 2.1 wasn't on my radar until the Tide16 was announced back in January (post #1) and everyone started bleating about it. Never realised there was any need at all.
Then I found there were dozens of good HDMI 2.1 switches that could off-load the PC & console source selection, and many of them had eARC.
It occurred to me that not having HDMI 2.1 was actually an advantage in some respects :
  • An AVP with HDMI 2.0, plus an HDMI 2.1 switch, is cheaper than an AVP with HDMI 2.1.
  • Changing the switch to keep up to date with ever-evolving video interface standards makes more sense than updating the AVP every time.
  • Using eARC to connect the switch to the AVP means that video never enters the AVP, which stops high frequency noise and interference, witness the high performance that Amir measured on the Luxsin X9 Smart Stereo DAC & Preamp when using the ARC input. This is the same as USB, and is much better than any device has ever achieved with conventional HDMI input.

View attachment 540238

I know some people don't agree with this for good reasons, but I don't care, this is AUDIO Science Forum.
Playing Devil's Advocate, let's say we don't mind further going deeper into separates and forgoing the "V" from "AVP", surely there exists a device out there that is a great DSP that is also ART-capable, and has more than 3 HDMI inputs?

Buying a true separates setup means each device is blind to the capabilities of all others in the chain. Why must my DSP still rely on ARC/eARC to maximize the full potential of my system?!!!
 
Buying a true separates setup means each device is blind to the capabilities of all others in the chain.
That's definitely where I am. I think compromises are inevitable if you combine multiple functions into one unit, like an AVR or active speaker.
I've worked in complex electronics systems all my career, and experience shows you can do it the hard way, or you can do it the easy way, which is with a layered architecture.
If you have one function per layer, you can optimise the design, improve the performance, reduce the price, and take advantage of specialist capabilities, like companies that ONLY make DACs, and do it very well, or companies that ONLY make HDMI switches, and do it very well. or power amps, .... etc.
You need to have established interfaces for that to happen, but a lot of those are already there, like HDMI for video, AES/EBU for digital audio, line level audio, etc.
When you organise the layers like that, you're quite right, the decoder doesn't need to know what the DAC is doing, it only knows that it needs to output digital audio, etc.
There are some elements of the system that are mature and well-established, like power amps for example. They don't need to change frequently.
Other things like video gaming technology or digital room correction do change rapidly, but you don't want to change every layer when only one of them changes.
Playing Devil's Advocate, let's say we don't mind further going deeper into separates and forgoing the "V" from "AVP", surely there exists a device out there that is a great DSP that is also ART-capable, and has more than 3 HDMI inputs?
Part of the answer might be to use a moderately priced AVR like a recent Denon that supports ART, and use it in preamp mode.
Another answer might be to use an AVP with digital audio outputs, and feed them to a PC running Dirac. I believe that wouldn't be limited to 48kHz sample rate like most AVPs are. That can then drive a high quality multi channel DAC.
Another option might be to use an audio interface with it's own Atmos compatible per-channel parametric EQ, like Apogee or Antelope or Grace Design, but these days there are an increasing number of interfaces that support SoundID Reference room calibration, like Universal, Merging, DAD, Avid, RME, Avid, Lynx, or Audient.
Why must my DSP still rely on ARC/eARC to maximize the full potential of my system?!!!
Of course that's not essential, and Amir's test of the Tide16 may yet show that such measures aren't necessary, but eARC helps to avoid video compromising audio.
 
Another answer might be to use an AVP with digital audio outputs, and feed them to a PC running Dirac. I believe that wouldn't be limited to 48kHz sample rate like most AVPs are. That can then drive a high quality multi channel DAC.
That is true, for those who insist/believe in the high sampling rate thing would likely still be disappointed because they will still be limited to a fixed rate, such as 96 or 192 kHz. Higher, but fixed to what you pick.
 
That is true, for those who insist/believe in the high sampling rate thing would likely still be disappointed because they will still be limited to a fixed rate, such as 96 or 192 kHz. Higher, but fixed to what you pick.
I wouldn't be too upset to have a system where all the processing was done at 192kHz. It would be ideal if was done at native rate, like Trinnov. It seems it's a lot to ask for, though.
 
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I wouldn't be too upset to have a system where all the processing was done at 192kHz. It would be ideal if was done at native rate, like Trinnov. It seems it's a lot to ask for, though.
Native would be best but if I can’t hear the difference I won’t pay $20k for Trinnov, 5k for the Tide or 9k for Marantz would be my limit, in C$. If I can hear a difference/better then 20k or more may be fine.
 
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Yes, my understanding is even 192 is investing more without any possible audible benefit in a recreational listening context
 
Yes, my understanding is even 192 is investing more without any possible audible benefit in a recreational listening context
Atmos is 48/24. What possible advantage would there be to processing at 192kHz? For that matter, what possible advantage would there be to processing at such high sample rate for any purpose, unless there is going to be a special edition of Dirac ART for bats, dogs, and cats.
 
Atmos is 48/24. What possible advantage would there be to processing at 192kHz? For that matter, what possible advantage would there be to processing at such high sample rate for any purpose, unless there is going to be a special edition of Dirac ART for bats, dogs, and cats.
I don't think I could ever be an audiophile as I'm way too practical.
 
Atmos is 48/24. What possible advantage would there be to processing at 192kHz?
48kHz is fine for Atmos, but there's lots of other material out there at 96kHz and 192kHz, and I want to make the most of ALL of it by processing it at native rate.
Trinnov can do it using a $100 CPU. That's too expensive for an AVR, but there's less excuse for an expensive AVP.

My perspective:
The decision on what sample rate processing to use isn't taken whenever a new AVP or AVR comes out.
The decision was taken long before by all the people that decided to record, master, publish, distribute, buy, store and play that material.

This is the Tide16 thread, and MiniDSP have made their decisions about sample rate processing and HDMI version etc, so it's moot. You can simply chose to buy it or not.
 
To me, 96, 192, 384 doesn't matter much, but I do value native, because I think no/less conversion is better at least in theory whether it sounds better or not. I also am sure SINAD of 90 or 120 matters little to my perception, but I chase the higher number for the same reason, or non reason.:) All depends on how much the premium is though, at some point I would not pay more just to chase the better numbers.
 
Apparently higher can be helpful for professional music production, engineering / mixing use cases
 
Yes, my understanding is even 192 is investing more without any possible audible benefit in a recreational listening context
I'm not sure whether I have the will to pick that up as the ASR crowd never like to hear that they don't know everything, but here goes. You will all despise this.
There are two things that make me think that 96 or 192kHz sampling is worthwhile.

Firstly I think it's bad logic to assume that a 20kHz bandwidth is transparent, just because you can't hear sine waves above 20kHz. Apologies if you've heard this before, but a few years ago I was surprised to be able to hear the difference between 6kHz sine and square waves. Square waves consist of a fundamental plus only odd order harmonics. So the effective difference between those waves is the third harmonic at 18kHz, which I couldn't hear at all, when heard in isolation. That means I shouldn't be able to hear the difference. However, when that completely inaudible harmonic was sitting on top of a 6kHz sine wave, it was quite a distinct difference, and it's a very simple and convincing test (unless you're purely a keyboard warrior).

After that, I began to notice some commonality in controlled listening tests reports, where the presence of ultrasonic components was undetectable in isolation, but was detectable when played at the same time as audible band components. I think this means that you can't determine the bandwidth requirement for transparency just by listening to sinusoidal signals - you have to listen to all signals.

Secondly, lower sample rates allow very little room for the anti-aliasing filter. You want full attenuation in the stop band, plus both linear amplitude and phase response in the pass band. Linear amplitude response is enough to reproduce sine waves correctly, but you need both linear amplitude and phase response to reproduce transients and all time-varying signals correctly.
In practice you can get two of those things right, but compromise the third, which is usually phase response. Here's a very thorough test by SoundStageNetwork of a very good DAC, the RME ADI-2 DAC FS.
First, the frequency response of the SD Sharp filter at 44.1kHz is flat to 20kHz. In comparison, the slow filter is rolled-off.
Second, the phase response of the SD Sharp filter varies with the sample rate. At 192kHz it's nearly flat up to 20kHz, but deviates more at 96kHz, and worse at 44.1kHz.
Third, the Slow filter has poor stop-band attenuation (as well as in-band roll-off) so there's very little attenuation of the 19.1kHz image.
Fourth, the pay-back is time domain response, and the Slow filter reproduces a good transient:

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Therefore if you use 96 or 192kHz sampling, you can use a slow filter with linear in-band phase response AND linear in-band amplitude response AND good stop band attenuation.
I think there's a similar argument for extending the low frequency response below 20Hz, as well. .
 
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My ears being old, and my budget tiny

even if all that is important, personally I'm not going to pay more than say 20% for each doubling of bandwidth.

But, that's just me.

Thanks so much for laying all that out though, good stuff!
 
You will all despise this.
Not sure why anyone would despise this. But it is more than an oddball.

Ultrasonics and subsonics is even more bizarre than stereo bass and envelopment that seem to be going around. At least they speak of what we acknowledge as audible range. Testing requires more than one sample, so we have plenty of those on this forum without the need to reach out to the neighbours.

And if you can hear ultrasonics at your age (or any age), it will be a rare phenomenon. At any age, you can't "hear" infrasonics as they are tactile. The latter tend to be loved and hated by different people. I that respect, that is not audio response as we can't really hear it. It is response beyond our audio range that can be detected by our other senses.
 
The other benefit not mentioned to the Tide16 value proposition is that a seperate video processor is often a "must have" in various projector based home theatre systems. As ASR is not so much a "Home Theatre" oriented forum this feature is often overlooked in these discussions. Seperate video processors have been a feature for some project setups for a long time to either solve setup size and screen ratio issues or improve output quality. Think Mad VR and Lumagen based systems supporting JVC Sony and Epson dedicated HT systems.
The significance of HDFury VVroom and other units is also based on the the LLDV feature set they provide for non Dolby Vision- capable projectors. I know this is all a bit "exotic Video stuff" for the strictly audio side of ASR, but these dedicated systems drive a lot of the HT market and certainly minidsp have taken this into account in their Tide16 offering.
If you run any of these video processors, then outputting video without it going through an AVP to a projector is a system design feature and not a drawback.

So whilst I see where gamers and others regard the Tide16 HDMI version a limit, there are potentially custom installers and HT people who will see this as an advantage and a pretty big financial one at that to get a processor of this quality at this price point.
 
I couldn't get the hd fury VRROOM to work (pass multi channel audio) upstream or downstream of the TIDE16.
 
Hey Mort - have you raised a support ticket with minidsp?
I'd be interested in the response as I've got 3 HDfury devices (including the VRRoom and 2 older Lumagens for that matter )
 
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