That may very well be the case. While I don't currently use any MiniDSP devices, I have done in the past, and I certainly never found them particularly scary. MiniDSP's documentation is fairly decent and their software reasonably well written. I wouldn't say Dirac itself is much easier to use ...
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miniDSP SHD only does 2 channels of Dirac. I want 2 subs. Options?
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That may very well be the case. While I don't currently use any MiniDSP devices, I have done in the past, and I certainly never found them particularly scary. MiniDSP's documentation is fairly decent and their software reasonably well written. I wouldn't say Dirac itself is much easier to use ...
I think you have been lucky with your particular setup, and you are generalizing based on that. In general, subwoofer integration - even with just one sub - is non-trivial. That’s why Dirac Live Bass Control (as opposed to plain Dirac Live) is a separate product.
anotherhobby
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Hey OP, I think you may be overthinking the difference between what you think you want and how the miniDSP Flex with Dirac Live actually performs. When building my office system, I also wanted something to correct the subs independently, but nothing outside of AVRs seemed to do this. Luckily for me, it turns out that in practice Dirac Live's full range correction works tremendously well. It absolutely does DSP correction on the subs — it's just combined with the mains. This also gives you stereo bass, which sounds better to me than a mono bass config where the subs act together, but I'm not getting into that here as there are long and deep threads on the topic.
I've had a 2.4 setup using the Flex and Dirac Live for 3 years now, plus a t.racks 4x4 mini as a downstream DSP to handle delay/routing for the extra 2 subs. My setup is Dirac Live only and contains no REW filters or MSO or any of that, and it's excellent. The config is just delays, crossovers, routing, and then Dirac Live. I tried messing with REW, MSO, and other stuff, and hilariously Dirac Live would pretty much correct back to the same thing each time, and nothing sounded any better and only added complication and time. For my 2.4 setup, each main is paired with a front and rear sub. I use a standard 80 Hz crossover, with delay added to the mains and front subs since they are closer to me. Dirac Live sees each 3-piece combo as a single Right and Left speaker, and then corrects accordingly. A 2.2 setup is even easier as it doesn't require a second DSP for the additional routing and delays.
1. Set crossovers, levels, and any necessary delay between subs and mains. The delays will be necessary unless each sub is directly next to each main. You can figure that out with REW or a measuring tape. I did both, and REW just confirmed my measuring tape. Levels between subs/mains aren't terribly important, as I found Dirac will smooth the response either way.
2. Once each channel is configured, Run Dirac Live
3. Confirm your result with REW if you care, and then you can tweak the Dirac Live curve to your liking. Not necessary though.
4. Enjoy
TLDR: I really thought I needed something that corrected each sub independently, but it turns out that 2 channel correction actually works incredibly well for stereo music.
I've had a 2.4 setup using the Flex and Dirac Live for 3 years now, plus a t.racks 4x4 mini as a downstream DSP to handle delay/routing for the extra 2 subs. My setup is Dirac Live only and contains no REW filters or MSO or any of that, and it's excellent. The config is just delays, crossovers, routing, and then Dirac Live. I tried messing with REW, MSO, and other stuff, and hilariously Dirac Live would pretty much correct back to the same thing each time, and nothing sounded any better and only added complication and time. For my 2.4 setup, each main is paired with a front and rear sub. I use a standard 80 Hz crossover, with delay added to the mains and front subs since they are closer to me. Dirac Live sees each 3-piece combo as a single Right and Left speaker, and then corrects accordingly. A 2.2 setup is even easier as it doesn't require a second DSP for the additional routing and delays.
1. Set crossovers, levels, and any necessary delay between subs and mains. The delays will be necessary unless each sub is directly next to each main. You can figure that out with REW or a measuring tape. I did both, and REW just confirmed my measuring tape. Levels between subs/mains aren't terribly important, as I found Dirac will smooth the response either way.
2. Once each channel is configured, Run Dirac Live
3. Confirm your result with REW if you care, and then you can tweak the Dirac Live curve to your liking. Not necessary though.
4. Enjoy
TLDR: I really thought I needed something that corrected each sub independently, but it turns out that 2 channel correction actually works incredibly well for stereo music.
MarkS
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Another all-in-one solution is the Lyngdorf TDAI-1120 at around $2400 (but this will not meet the OP's desire to keep his DAC and amp). I mention it here for other readers. It can deal with one or two subs and will do stereo bass for the subs. Crossovers and delays must be set by the user. I did this with the tape-measure method for my single sub. Lyngdorf's RoomPerfect then does room correction on the combo. The result sounds very good to me. I have not bothered to measure it with REW. Someday I might.
Ultrasonic
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I don't think this is true, with both units running the stereo version of Dirac Live. The SHD is actually the more capable unit in signal processing options but via miniDSP's own app, but it takes manual intervention as discussed above. Where I do think the C658 is superior is in using BluOS vs Volumio.
Ultrasonic
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I've had no issues myself but I am a physicist with a research background in (ultarasonic) acoustics. I'm fairly active on the miniDSP forum and am very familiar with the frustrations of those who make the mistake of not appreciating that they are more enthusiast devices than plug and play though, and so when someone warns how little 'work' they want to do like the OP I will advise against miniDSP devices.
It is true though, whether or not you think so. Yes, the C658 is a stereo device but the Dirac implementation indisputably enables measurement and adjustment of all four channels (2 mains and 2 subs) independently in contrast to the SHD. Whether this results in 'better' calibration in the end is of course debatable and I am certainly not claiming it does or that the C658 is 'better' in every (or any) way than the SHD. But for OP's specific requirement of separate Dirac channels for mains and subs that kicked off this whole thread the C658 ticks those boxes ...
I don’t have the NAD C685, but I do have the M33, which also has two sub outputs. I believe these behave in the same way with respect to Dirac. Dirac sees four «channels» - two mains and two subs - measures these and applies separate filters to them. The key point here is «separate filters» - there is no sub integration involved. Typically, then, the subs are not well integrated with the mains, and there may be cancellations in the lower frequencies. Of course, it is possible to get lucky, and subs + mains work well together out of the box. This seems to be the case for you. But in general, no. In my case I use a miniDSP with a lot of manual tweaking to get my two subs integrated. Automating this would need DLBC or something similar.
Probably not helpful.. but that won’t stop me…
-Get a Denon x3800, upgrade to Dirac ART
Done.
You would give up using your own DAC. Do an a/b test, level matched. You won’t miss the external dac IMO.
Use the internal amps. Denon internal amps are fine as well. Powering only 2 speakers, they have quite a lot of power
This is exactly the use case for an AVR and the built in functionality, hdmi, eq for both movies and music etc.
Ultrasonic
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First know that I was questioning what you said purely to keep the information in this thread helpful and accurate.
Does it indicate anywhere in the software that DLBC is used? If it is then that would be great, but at odds with the information on the NAD website that I linked to above. I ask as I'm pretty sure the only Dirac solutions for properly optimising subwoofer integration (i.e. optimising time delays and crossovers) are using either DLBC or ART. If you're not using DLBC then I believe the functionality you're referring to is something specific to the C658 but is not Dirac Live functionality.
When the measurements are completed, does the software give any details of calculated/applied time delays that are used to optimise the subwoofer integration (ideally applied as time delays to the main speakers in most cases)? This would point to atuomated subwoofer integration one way or another if they are, and would be a step up in ease-of-use over the SHD where this is done manually.
What @janbth has posted fits much more with the sort of functionality I thought the C658 has btw.
No, it's definitely not using DLBC. It is presumably functionally identical the M33 as described above. However, for my needs it works well enough. I did once do a 'proper' sub integration using RePhase, REW, CamillaDSP and some of OCA's advanced techniques which also sounded fine but not meaningfully different to the Dirac setup, although I was not able to A/B the results for obvious reasons. And yes the phase measurements were a bit better around the crossover point but I can't honestly say I can hear the difference so I just stick with Dirac. Sometimes 'good enough' is good enough (and a lot less work) ... ;-)
You may want to look for a used Arcam AVR 390. You can get them on eBay for $400 or $500. This will do what you want it to do and sounds pretty good for an avr. Those are from my ears, not from measuring equipment. Another interesting option for you could be the Arcam SR250 which has class G amplification. The dacs on these units are a little bit dated but they sound good with analog input if you want to keep your DAC. Both of those units have analog audio output if you want to use external amplification. You also may want to mess around with some of the wiim stuff. Wim Ultra does an automatic delay calculation using your phone and even has some kind of Auto EQ on it. The wiim Ultra has a million different options for outputs and such that you can play with and if anything will provide you with a solid weekend of entertainment messing around with all the stuff. In the end at least for me I think that if you have all the other external bits to provide a solid analog signal to an Arcam AVR 390 that's the most cost-effective way to get Dirac that will do a sub and speakers in the way you want it to do. Wiim is not bad especially through the toslink output but just for my system I thought you lose a little bit of clarity with it. Definitely worth it to check out the wiim since you can borrow it from Amazon
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