Minidsp C-DSP 8x12 V2.0 Review

[bbfoto]

IMHO The high noise floor in the average motor vehicles make DSP not a priority in sound improment.

Just here to back up Amir's previous response... ^This could not be any further from the truth!

I've been using similar such DSP units in high end car audio systems since the late 1980's. I wouldn't even bother listening to or turning on a car stereo if it did not have (properly tuned) DSP.

I've been using the DUT here for the last ~3 years (2 of those years with the added DIRAC Live plugin), and if you sat in my car and listened to the system while I changed presets with the remote from a simple "pass-through" with NO corrections or adjustments other than setting basic crossover filters, and then switched to a preset with full DSP corrections (with or without DIRAC) that has Optimized Crossovers, Indepedent Levels, Digital Delay, Parametric EQ, etc. via this miniDSP, your jaw would literally drop. And even when on the highway at 70 mph, those differences are immediately noticeable and appreciated!

Even when only using the vehicle's cheap OEM speakers, the proper use of this DSP can provide a Night & Day difference to all aspects of the Tonality/Spectral Balance, Imaging, and Soundstage, as well as dynamics and "impact".

But, then add high end drivers (combined with proper installation) and decent amplification to your vehicle, such as transducers from Dynaudio (Esotar²), Accuton Automotive, Scanspeak, Focal Utopia M, Purifi, BlieSMa, Audison THESIS, MicroPrecision, JL Audio, Alpine STATUS, Sony Mobile ES, Stereo Integrity, Acoustic Elegance, etc, and your system can be transformed to a Studio On Wheels.

You just don't know what you don't know, mate.

I'm a saxophonist and drummer/percussionist with a home recording studio, and listening to my car audio systems using this and other DSP units makes me smile every day!

In addition, there are many excellent aftermarket anti-NVH or "Sound Deadening" and resonance control products that can be applied to any vehicle to improve the quietness of the cabin. Look at products from ResoNix Sound Solutions, Dynamat, SoundSkinz, Second Skin, 3M, etc.

You might also be interested to know that Natan Budiono, who is the lead engineer for the OEM Automotive Division of Harman/JBL, and formerly for Mark Levinson/Lexus car audio systems, is an active Car Audio "Sound Quality" competitor and a MECA, EMMA, and IASCA organizations "SQ World Champion" using the Mark Levinson DSP that he developed for OEM car stereo systems, combined with the high end JBL Arena X line of car audio loudspeaker transducers.

If my YouTube Link is not allowed, search YouTube for "Everyday Audios Natan Budiono" or "Best SQ car in the World?".

 

[tktran303]

With EVs coming, the possibilities of higher voltage and lower noise?

The world keeps getting better.

 

[bbfoto]

It's been many moons since I bought my last head unit (new cars make it well nigh impossible to replace the HU) so do newer head units have coax and/or optical out much like home streamers, CD players, etc? When I was buying them they only had RCA outs.

Amir mentioned the Clarion unit, which I tried and do not care for just from a functionality/GUI/usability aspect.

There are very few aftermarket car stereo head units available these days that have a digital ouput. But one that is currently available is the Stinger HEIGH10, but it is a large 10" "floating touchscreen" unit, not a standard double-DIN size like the Clarion.

Because of the lack of Digital outputs, and/or having to retain the OEM head unit because there are other integrated OEM functions of the car that it controls, lots of car audio SQ enthusiasts are using a Portable DAP such as those made by FiiO, Astell & Kern, iBasso, Hiby, etc. A "DAP" (Digital Audio Player) is like a modern iPod that has a touchscreen and plays Hi-Res digital files as well as streaming from TIDAL HIFI, Qobuz, Spotify, Deeper, etc.

Many of these DAPs have a Digital output, but it's usually Coaxial Digital, that you can connect to car audio DSP units such as this miniDSP. Some DAPs do have S/PDIF Optical via a 3.5mm mini-Toslink jack.

So you can have your OEM head unit connected to this or other DSPs via the "High level" speaker outputs from your vehicle's OEM head unit or amplifier, and a separate DAP or other high quality, clean, unmolested digital source connected at the same time. Using the remote display/knob, you can switch to between the OEM system's Inputs and the Digital input for the DAP, and each preset can have a completely independent and different set of DSP parameters.

95% of OEM audio stereo systems will have Volume-Dependent EQ with bass roll-off, as well as their fixed set of overall EQ that optimizes the tonality and performance of their cheap,speakers to what THEY think is best. It may not be to your liking. In addition, if you need or want to replace any of the OEM speakers with better aftermarket models, the OEMs fixed EQ and processing will be far from ideal for the new speakers.

So it's important to have multiple, separate "Tuning Presets" and source switching so that you can "fix" the signal coming from the pre-processed OEM system, and have another group of optimized settings for your pure or raw secondary source.

One of my car audio systems does not have a CD player, so in my center console armrest cubby I keep an old portable Sony Discman/Walkman CD player that has a Toslink mini optical digital output that I can feed into the miniDSP. IIRC, it is the Sony D-EJ715 CD Walkman. The 3.5mm analog stereo "Line Out" jack doubles as a mini-Toslink output.

Several car audio guys are also using their iPhones or iPads with the Apple USB Camera Connection Kit adapter and a USB cable into a USB DAC/"Bridge" device such as the Topping D10S, and sending the Toslink digital output from the Topping D10S to the miniDSP or other DSP unit's Toslink input. There are Hi-Res music player apps for iOS such as the ONKYO HF Player app.

Or they will use an Android smartphone or tablet with the UAPP music player/streamer app and connect it via USB to a Topping D10S or SMSL PO100 PRO and on to the Toslink input of the DSP.

And I know of several car stereo SQ enthusiasts that are actually using a WiFi file server/streamer such as the Innuos Zen Mini S as the primary source in their vehicle.

There is also a new "Hi-Res" Bluetooth Receiver from Audison called the Audison B-con. It is compatible with the Apt-X HD and LDAC Hi-Res Bluetooth codecs, so if you have an Android smartphone or tablet that supports Apt-X HD or LDAC Bluetooth (most Samsung Galaxy-series devices) it is another great option for adding a second source other than your OEM head unit to your car audio system. The "B-con" has a pass-through Toslink digital Input & Output as well as a pair of analog 2v line-level RCA outputs that can connect to your DSP.

The "B-con" also supports TWO concurrent Bluetooth connections, and will automatically switch to the other Bluetooth device when it senses a signal on that input. For example, you can be listening to music from another BT source, but if you get a cellular call and it's connected via BT for hands-free calling, it will automatically switch to that BT connection. More info here:

 

[bbfoto]

With EVs coming, the possibilities of higher voltage and lower noise?

The world keeps getting better.

Yes. But I think it will be a while for the "12 volt" Aftermarket car audio manufacturers to catch up and start manufacturing audio equipment that operates at 48v DC or higher. For now, most of these EVs still have a small 12vdc battery that is charged from the main battery by a DC-DC step-down converter to support the more common 12v devices in automobiles, such as the ubiquitous 12v cigarette lighter or charging port. But some EVs, such as the Tesla Plaid models operate the "accessory electronics" in the vehicle at 16vdc +, which is too high for most aftermarket car audio equipment.

But search for "Matt Schaeffer/MUSAIC Design" on YouTube. He specializes in high-end car audio system installations using DSP in lots of the Tesla EVs.

 

[bbfoto]

8 inputs and 12 outputs, mapped very flexibly. The best snr is via 2 channels digital in, then you maps out to 3-6 low level (RCA) channels per side.

If all you want is 2 in and up to 8 out, then the minidsp flex might be better.

But in my use case this doesn't work. I want to start with an LT of my sealed subs on the denon, so need low level RCA input. And then, eq the preout LCR before sending to an outboard amp. So I need at least five low level inputs and outputs.

It's nice to have 12 out, because down the road, for the LCR, I can biamp a woofer unit and a passive MT unit (and having an active component in the chain makes a passive so much easier and technically better. See John Kreskovsy's page, archived now- Hybrid design ), so I'd need 5 low level in to 8 low level out to pull off 2 eq'd subs and biamped active hybrid LCR's. Plus a 6 channel amp. But trying fully active LCR 3 ways would be 9 channels of active amplification for the front three alone! 6 channels of Hypex I can afford. Nine channels, well...

There just aren't that many reasonably priced flexible active units with 6 or more in and 8-12 out...

Mark,

Take a look at the JL Audio TwK 88 car audio DSP which is currently $549 MSRP. It's probably the best you will do price-wise compared to the miniDSP C-DSP 8x12 v2. You can probably get them from a local JL Audio dealer/car audio shop for $50 to $75 less than the MSRP. And second-hand units pop up occasionally on eBay or the more popular car audio forums for about $300-$350.

TwK-88

System Tuning DSP with 8-ch. Stereo RCA Inputs / 2 Digital (Optical and Coaxial) Inputs / 8-ch. Stereo RCA Outputs / 1 Digital Optical Output The TwK® 88 is a state-of-the-art digital signal processor engineered to deliver world-class system tuning capabilities in an easy-to-use format...

www.jlaudio.com

As the name implies, the TwK 88 has 8 analog RCA Inputs and 8 analog RCA Outputs, and a very flexiible I/O Routing Matrix. It also has a 2-channel digital Toslink Optical Input, as well as a Toslink Output that be used to send either a processed or a raw "pass-through" stereo digital audio signal to a second unit (or any Toslink compatible device).

Unfortunately, the TwK 88 does not have the option for DIRAC Live...that's exculsive to the miniDSP units in the 12V car audio DSP sector at the moment.

One other difference is that the TwK 88 just has 10 P-EQ bands per channel, as opposed to the miniDSP's 31 bands per channel. But 10 bands is usually more than enough to make the necessary corrections, and those EQ bands can be assigned to ANY frequency from 20Hz-20kHz with adjustable level and Q.

There is also a wired "remote knob" (DRC-100, DRC-200, DRC-205) for the TwK 88 that you can assign as a Main System Volume control (ideal when using the Toslink input), Subwoofer Level, and for switching between multiple "Tuning" or Source Input Presets.

JL Audio has also recently updated their TüN 4.0 DSP software that is used to program and make adjustments to the TwK 88 DSP, which now incorporates some of the key real-time PHASE analyzer display and measurement/adjustment features from SMAART v8. This new update to the software was developed to be used and fully integrated with their newer VXi-series of multi-channel car audio DSP/amplifiers. But the measurement tools will still work with the TwK 88, though it will not automatically apply the updated filters or corrections in real time as it does with the VXi series units. You need to input the corrections manually.

You can Download the TüN DSP software for FREE at the Link I posted above and you can try it in DEMO mode without needing a DSP unit connected. And it's available for both MacOS and Windows! YAY!

JL Audio also developed a proprietary USB Audio Hardware Interface that supports a 5-microphone measurement array which is called MAX. It integrates seamlessly with the TüN DSP software and the newer VXi-series DSP/Amplifiers. But I believe it is in the neighborhood of $3400, so hold on to your current measurement mic and REW for now.

MAX™ Audio Measurement System Overview - JL Audio

www.jlaudio.com

You might also try to find a second-hand Audiotec-Fischer HELIX DSP PRO Mk2 which is 8 RCA In/10 RCA Out + Toslink or Coaxial Input. Used units typically fall in the $375-$475 range. But you'll want one of the wired remote controllers as well.

HELIX DSP PRO MK2

Digital High-Res 10-channel signal processor with 96 kHz / 32 Bit signal path

www.audiotec-fischer.de

 

[Rottmannash]

Amir mentioned the Clarion unit, which I tried and do not care for just from a functionality/GUI/usability aspect.

There are very few aftermarket car stereo head units available these days that have a digital ouput. But one that is currently available is the Stinger HEIGH10, but it is a large 10" "floating touchscreen" unit, not a standard double-DIN size like the Clarion.

Because of the lack of Digital outputs, and/or having to retain the OEM head unit because there are other integrated OEM functions of the car that it controls, lot of car audio SQ enthusiasts are using a Portable DAP such as those made by FiiO, Astell & Kern, iBasso, Hiby, etc. A "DAP" is like a modern iPod that has a touchscreen and plays Hi-Res digital files as well as streaming from TIDAL HIFI, Qobuz, Spotify, Deeper, etc.

Many of these DAPs have a Digital output, but usually coaxial digital, that you can connect to car audio DSP units such as this miniDSP. So you can have your OEM head unit connected to this or other DSPs via the "High level" speaker outputs from your vehicle's OEM head unit or amplifier, and using the remote display/knob, you can switch to between the OEM system's inputs and the Digital input for the DAP.

One of my car audio systems does not have a CD player, so in my center console armrest cubby I keep an old portable Sony Discman/Walkman CD player that has a Toslink mini optical digital output that I can feed into the miniDSP. IIRC, it is the Sony D-EJ715 CD Walkman. The 3.5mm analog stereo "Line Out" jack doubles as a mini-Toslink output.

Several car audio guys are also using their iPhones or iPads with the Apple USB Camera Connection Kit adapter and a USB cable into a USB DAC/"Bridge" device such as the Topping D10S, and sending the Toslink digital output from the Topping D10S to the miniDSP or other DSP unit's Toslink input. There are Hi-Res music player apps for iOS such as the ONKYO HF Player app.

Or they will use an Android smartphone or tablet with the UAPP music player/streamer app and connect it via USB to a Topping D10S or SMSL PO100 PRO and on to the Toslink input of the DSP.

There is also a new "Hi-Res" Bluetooth Receiver from Audison called the "B-con". It is compatible with the Apt-X HD and LDAC Hi-Res Bluetooth codecs, so if you have an Android smartphone or tablet that supports Apt-X HD or LDAC Bluetooth (most Samsung Galaxy-series devices) it is another great option for adding a second source other than your OEM head unit to your car audio system. The "B-con" has a pass-through Toslink digital Input & Output as well as a pair of analog 2v line-level RCA outputs that can connect to your DSP.

The "B-con" also supports TWO concurrent Bluetooth connections, and will automatically switch to the other Bluetooth device when it senses a signal on that input. For example, you can be listening to music from another BT source, but if you get a cellular call and it's connected via BT for hands-free calling, it will automatically switch to that BT connection. More info here:

Thanks for the detailed response. I already use one of 3 DAPs via 3.5 mm into the stock head units of both cars and tha'ts OK but not ideal-only one has a 3.5 MM out that has a cable for COAX so could use that output but I can't see how I could hook this device into either of my car head units-don't know how or where to access the HU outputs/amp inputs and it seems as if I would have to disassemble the dash and possibly more to get to the HU outputs/amp inputs. It is a tempting thought though.

 

[bbfoto]

Thanks for the detailed response. I already use one of 3 DAPs via 3.5 mm into the stock head units of both cars and tha'ts OK but not ideal-only one has a 3.5 MM out that has a cable for COAX so could use that output but I can't see how I could hook this device into either of my car head units-don't know how or where to access the HU outputs/amp inputs and it seems as if I would have to disassemble the dash and possibly more to get to the HU outputs/amp inputs. It is a tempting thought though.

Depending on what vehicle you own and which OEM stereo option package it has, there are now many aftermarket OEM Integration Modules combined with "Plug & Play" Wiring Harnesses (T-harness) that allow you to either replace the OEM head unit with an aftermarket stereo head unit while retaining all or most of the OEM features, OR allow you to keep the OEM head unit, but extract a direct, clean, unaltered line level RCA or Digital Toslink signal output from the OEM system to support the addition of aftermarket DSPs and/or Amplifiers.

You can enter all of your vehicle's specific information to the respective company's websites below and see what options are available. Many vehicles (such as Toyota and Hyundai in particular) have very poor audio signal quality from the OEM head unit or amplifiers, and replacing or bypassing them completely and connecting to an aftermarket amplifier or DSP makes a HUGE difference in the audio quality.

iDataLink Maestro (RR = Radio Replacement, AR = Amplifier Replacement). They have an integrated Rockford-Fosgate DSR1 8-Channel DSP with RCA or Toslink Digital Outputs and even custom dash/radio solutions for Ford & other vehicles (Search for MFT1).
https://www.idatalinkmaestro.com/en/

PAC-Audio AmpPRO

AmpPRO - PAC

Amplifier Interface Module

catalog.pac-audio.com

NAVTV ZEN / ZEN A2B (additional support for vehicles that use a MOST fiber optic digital interface).

NAV TV - Leader in OEM Video Integration | Welcome to Vehicle Integration Products

mObridge (additional support for vehicles that use a MOST fiber optic digital interface)

Home - mObridge

mobridge.us

Metra AXXESS

https://axxessinterfaces.com/product/AXDSP-L

 

[bbfoto]

Thanks for the detailed response. I already use one of 3 DAPs via 3.5 mm into the stock head units of both cars and tha'ts OK but not ideal-only one has a 3.5 MM out that has a cable for COAX so could use that output but I can't see how I could hook this device into either of my car head units-don't know how or where to access the HU outputs/amp inputs and it seems as if I would have to disassemble the dash and possibly more to get to the HU outputs/amp inputs. It is a tempting thought though.

Oh, just noticed the gear in your sig. Quite a few car audio guys use the FiiO M11+ or variants connected directly to this miniDSP's coaxial digital input with excellent results. I use my old iBasso DX90 and newer DX320.

I'm over on the DIY Mobile Audio forums with the same user name if you need any more information.

 

[Rottmannash]

Oh, just noticed the gear in your sig. Quite a few car audio guys use the FiiO M11+ or variants connected directly to this miniDSP's coaxial digital input with excellent results. I use my old iBasso DX90 and newer DX320.

I'm over on the DIY Mobile Audio forums with the same user name if you need any more information.

Thanks. I may check that out. Just joined.

 

[IamJF]

I think "deceptive" is a bit harsh.

They put the theoretical performance of the DAC in the datasheets knowingly the unit doesn't achieve that performance. Sometimes with a big margin (as a 20dB performance loss with analog input). In my book that's deceptive.
They got better with their new high performance units but it seems they still use this practice with their other stuff.

I used plenty of their ice power units for a high sensitivity application ... I needed to modify the power supply cause they simply didn't do it properly. The power supply from the ICE module to power additional electronics is VERY dirty and needs good filtering. Here is before and after adding a few caps and resistors (and some gain stagging and smaller things):

Example DDRC88A. They updated the datasheet and say 114dB DAC IC, Measured 105dB (They only had the theoretical values in old datasheets. Finally bought an Audio Precision?).
Here are the measurements - 95,5 or 98dB S/N. While the value is not good first a spread of 2,5dB screams "inconsistent design/humm noise issues - as you see in my measurements above.

Minidsp DDRC-88A Dirac Multichannel DSP Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Minidsp DDRC-88A balanced 8 channel in, 8 channel out, Dirac and manual EQ DSP system. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $999. The connectivity as you see is with phoenix connectors and if you order a set of cables to XLR for that...

www.audiosciencereview.com

They are not alone with this practice, many companies which just let their units produce don't care about the datasheet (e.g. Monacor DSM-48LAN. Thay don't even get the output voltage right). This has to stop - customers are not that silly any more. It's a pain to need to measure all new devices if they at least match the performance of the datasheet.

 

[yourmando]

Also notice that this unit supports 8 channel Dirac Live (extra cost option). I have one of these with Dirac in my car, results are pretty awesome.

That’s cool. When you’re doing the measurement grid, do you just choose locations around the drivers seat, or do you include the passenger area as well?

 

[TimoJ]

That’s cool. When you’re doing the measurement grid, do you just choose locations around the drivers seat, or do you include the passenger area as well?

I have used only locations around the drivers seat.

 

[rsqt]

Hello,

I use a modified C-DSP. All the opamps were changed from the really bad NJM2068 to OPA1642 and nearly all the caps are now of better/high quality. Minidsp names the possible THD+N data from the naked chip but with the normal very cheap opamp behind it it is not possible to reach these datas.
The sound improvement was audible at once without problems, a massive improvement!

I also have modified Mosconis "8 to 12 Aerospace" with OPA1612 and high quality caps. Sound is a bit better than the Minidsp imo. With the latest Mosconi Upgrade a really fantastic DSP with lots of tuning possibilities. Next stage is to use adapters from SOIC to DIP8 and put Sparkos Opamps (SS3602 and SS2590) on it with external voltage. Finally I'll change the clock to NS3 from "New Class D" with external voltage.

 

[Dumdum]

This just reinforces my thoughts on digital inputs vs analogue

Several high end car audio guys who all have a voice and ‘know best’ claim using a high end dac infront of a dsp analogue in can impart better sound quality, wider stages, deeper stages etc to a sound system as they know best… one such person even quoted your review of his dac stating that it did really well on here (Schitt something or other costing thousands) but refused to actually believe in measurements and more distortion/noise with analogue in vs digital in, claimed his stage was 8” wider and 2” further away with a dac infront of the dsp vs digital input

It’s literally impossible to have better distortion and signal to noise performance with a dac infront of a dsp vs a digital input… he continues to insist a dac infront of a dsp is better somehow to this day and repeats it like it’s gospel on car audio forums whenever anyone asks about the best way to get digital from phones or tablets to a dsp… analogue all the way apparantly

 

[IamJF]

When your DAC has a sound signature you like and the ADC/DAC of the dsp is pretty good ... then you can like the result more. But for sure it's not more neutral.

 

[dwa]

Hi, maybe someone can clear it up for me. Is it really ~20dB worse than miniDSP Flex in analog-in analog-out part? If one would like to use it with OEM head unit and have only a possibility to use full analog path, then it will be much worse then miniDSP Flex. Right? (let ignore that's 2 vs 8 inputs for a moment ;-))

Edit: I just scrolled down miniDSP Flex review to TRS->RCA part. There's really 15dB balanced vs single-ended?

 

[rsqt]

I had a modified 8x12 with better opamps and caps. The sound of analog in /out was really good.

 

[aaddas]

I want to know if i have 6 inputs line high level signal from head unit, i could get 8 outputs signal? Becauae i need 2 more channels for subwoofer

 

[K man]

I want to know if i have 6 inputs line high level signal from head unit, i could get 8 outputs signal? Becauae i need 2 more channels for subwoofer

Yes, you could then get 8 low level RCA output channels.

 

[aaddas]

Thx K