Minidsp advice needed.....

[Kidcharlamane767]

Ha. I sincerely appreciate this conversation. (i was not expecting that analogy abdo, made me chuckle TY)

I am conveying what my ears hear as a data point in this conversion, not to disagree with the science provided - but as an element that is confusing me. I plug in my qutest, it sounds better when i plug in my Node 2i - it just does. Ears being an important source of data and the main consumer of the product. This fact is confusing me. (or is it the placebo effect? i am sure most on here will say yes)

Maybe the answer to my own question is: measurements on Node 2i is worse, and those differences are large enough, and dipping into the range of human hearing where an audible difference is actually there.

If one were to buy into Rob Watts/Chord hype, they'll tell you their higher powered FPGA converts the sound differently...

(i can hear some eyes rolling....).

I may be able to be convinced (full respect to Amirm and the brains on this site, much bigger than mine)- but man this hobby has a shit ton of snake oil, if all DAC's with 100+ db of SINAD and low noise floor are the same. It's just hard to believe there are so many out selling the opposite....

Don't know what to think at this moment.... maybe i am a theoretical flat earther that is looking for the edge, and in the process of befuddlement... don't know.

 

[Rick Sykora]

The Dirac implementation in the SHD is only two channel so subs are corrected as if they are part of the mains. In the C658 Dirac has 4 channels two mains and two subs so subs can be corrected independently of the mains. Whether it makes much of a difference in practise, I couldn't say. Neither the SHD or C658 have the much touted 'bass management' feature of Dirac as yet.

Exactly why I did not buy an SHD. Too much money to not support subwoofers better!

 

[abdo123]

Ha. I sincerely appreciate this conversation. (i was not expecting that analogy abdo, made me chuckle TY)

I am conveying what my ears hear as a data point in this conversion, not to disagree with the science provided - but as an element that is confusing me. I plug in my qutest, it sounds better when i plug in my Node 2i - it just does. Ears being an important source of data and the main consumer of the product. This fact is confusing me. (or is it the placebo effect? i am sure most on here will say yes)

Maybe the answer to my own question is: measurements on Node 2i is worse, and those differences are large enough, and dipping into the range of human hearing where an audible difference is actually there.

If one were to buy into Rob Watts/Chord hype, they'll tell you their higher powered FPGA converts the sound differently...

(i can hear some eyes rolling....).

I may be able to be convinced (full respect to Amirm and the brains on this site, much bigger than mine)- but man this hobby has a shit ton of snake oil, if all DAC's with 100+ db of SINAD and low noise floor are the same. It's just hard to believe there are so many out selling the opposite....

Don't know what to think at this moment.... maybe i am theoretical flat earther that looking for the edge and in the process of befuddlement... don't know.

Now that I feel you're actually open to a conversation about this, I feel more comfortable sharing reasons why you do hear a difference.

First, our hearing / brain cannot interpret amplitude differences below 1.5 dB as an actual loudness difference. a small amplitude difference will sound 'different' and people are more likely to pick the sound that is louder as better. When in reality, it's just louder.

The moment you volume match, the difference disappears. It's actually a very humbling thing to do because you realize there is nothing special about your hearing. kind of like that time in your early adolescence when you realize that you don't have any special talents

The second thing is bias, you obviously payed a pretty penny for your DAC and you heard a lot of opinions about how it sounds from Youtube and you projected that to your own experience.

The interesting thing about DACs is that the DAC signal is amplified A LOT downstream. So if something is wrong in the DAC you will hear it, and you will hear it loud and obvious.

 

[Kidcharlamane767]

Abdo,

How does one account for jitter, timing, and other elements. What are all these DAC companies doing with their large circuit boards, capacitors, oscillators, and the like (see Denfrips Terminator) -while others are small headphone USB sticks Audioquest, with a small chip inside etc. + Burr Brown, Sabre, AKM.... Are we saying all these Dac components have same similar capabilities/output across the spectrum at the end of the day, with zero qualitative differences (provided they get to a floor of performance discussed)? Seems like a lot of time, effort and bullshit for the same output.

(Totally get the volume match thing, and the perception of better with loader. )

Thanks...not trying to be a skeptic, you are actually helping me make a decision with this info... ...real questions!

 

[Kidcharlamane767]

Exactly why I did not buy an SHD. Too much money to not support subwoofers better!

Rick- What did you end up buying for DIRAC with good sub support?

 

[Rick Sykora]

Rick- What did you end buying for DIRAC with good sub support?

Since working (and spending) on other projects, have not done anything since. I know you can get Audyssey subwoofer management on some Denon AVRs for less money than the SHD. Have hoped to see some improvements from minidsp, but not a priority for me right now. Used to be you could get last year's model of AVR for half price, but the pandemic appears to have interrupted that cycle too.

 

[JustJones]

I think the Node2i DAC was one of the worst measuring, it's in the bottom section at any rate. Whether I could tell a difference blind no idea, hell I use the DAC in my genelec monitors , no idea what they are.

 

[bluefuzz]

Are we saying all these Dac components have same similar capabilities/output across the spectrum at the end of the day, with zero qualitative differences (provided they get to a floor of performance discussed)?

That's what we're saying ... ;-)

Seems like a lot of time, effort and bullshit for the same output.

Yep!

It's still possible for companies to screw things up of course, so you still need to check those basic performance levels are being met, but DACs are really a solved problem and have been for years. Differences in build quality (pots, switches, contacts, power supply etc.), industrial design (æsthetics), UI (ergonomics), connectivity (number and type of inputs, outputs) are where differentiation is meaningful.

Price is mostly dependent on the business model of the company. Is the gear built by a marketing-driven multinational with an efficient supply-chain and access to cheap asian manufacturing, or is it built by a lone guy with a soldering iron in his basement, somewhere in Western Europe, hand machining the casework in half-inch thick unobtanium? Neither business model necessarily has any effect on audio performance but will have a huge effect on the price.

 

[Phorize]

All....any further advice/comments on Shd - vs -shd studio with qutest with blended room correction.

I am close to buying studio as i want retain qutest ....

Question: Does anyone foresee a poor experience using studio, keeping sub on amp preeouts and utilizing dirac on L/R (no dedicated sub tuning)....+ keeping volume control at amp level.

Looking for confirmation or to be called off this approach.

You may wish to consider why you want to retain the qutest. With the shd you have the opportunity to have everything you want in one box and the qutest will have a strong resell value if you’ve looked after it so you’ll be cost neutral or better.

 

[Phorize]

Abdo,

How does one account for jitter, timing, and other elements. What are all these DAC companies doing with their large circuit boards, capacitors, oscillators, and the like (see Denfrips Terminator) -while others are small headphone USB sticks Audioquest, with a small chip inside etc. + Burr Brown, Sabre, AKM.... Are we saying all these Dac components have same similar capabilities/output across the spectrum at the end of the day, with zero qualitative differences (provided they get to a floor of performance discussed)? Seems like a lot of time, effort and bullshit for the same output.

(Totally get the volume match thing, and the perception of better with loader. )

Thanks...not trying to be a skeptic, you are actually helping me make a decision with this info... ...real questions!

If you look at measurements of pretty much any dac you’ll see that the jitter artefacts are all below audible thresholds and not a concern. ‘Timing’ is a marketing term, leveraging concepts around clock behaviour to make the end user paranoid about the musical timing that they are listening too. Your streamer software buffers everything, if you are using usb it’s asynchronous and one clock controls everything, if it’s not asynchronous any clock related issues will be transparent to you. As for Rob Watts, he’s a very good engineer but notice that he only says his wacky ‘we can’t measure everything important about a dac so just trust my ears’ as an individual, if chord made those statements as a company they’d be forced to withdraw them by the advertising standards regulators in most jurisdictions.