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mini/micro subwoofer thread

KSTR

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As for the thread topic, I would say those micro-subs are an engineering solution to a non-existing "yuppie" problem. If you are serious about audio but don't have the space or will to strategically place one or several normal sized subs (like a typical 12") then something is wrong anyway.
 

sigbergaudio

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To be fair, that is not the only thing they did. There is some kind of motion feedback system present to reduce distortion, and I guess the opposing setup with single motor helps as well. Not sure about the two voice coil sizes though.

Again, as explicitly stated, this was a general comment, not a specific comment about the Kef subwoofer.
 

sigbergaudio

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As for the thread topic, I would say those micro-subs are an engineering solution to a non-existing "yuppie" problem. If you are serious about audio but don't have the space or will to strategically place one or several normal sized subs (like a typical 12") then something is wrong anyway.

Strange statement. Why can't the two states "being serious about audio" and "having limited space" co-exist? Some live in very small apartments, some have partners with limited acceptance of refrigerator sized subwoofers (we have a pretty well established expression for this, aka Wife Acceptancy Factor), and some actually care for both interior design and the visual impression of their living space as well as audio.

Luckily, we live in a time where these things aren't mutually exclusive.
 

abdo123

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then something is wrong anyway.

Not being privileged enough to have the space for bass traps that absorb all the way down is not ‘wrong’.

Having 4 small subwoofers, not only mean that you will have the smoothest bass response possible in a domestic setting, but you also have +18 dB gain over having one subwoofer. Along with boundary gain you can get them impressively loud before reaching their limits.
 
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KSTR

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@sigbergaudio , of course that just my opinion and I have nothing against make sub look nice and aesthetic and shrink it to reasonable limits... the limits being individual, of course. If I can place a 20cm x 20cm x 20cm sub I can also place one with 1.5x the size which will about double the internal volume.
 
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KSTR

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Not being privileged enough to have the space for bass traps that absorb all the way down is not ‘wrong’.

Having 4 small subwoofers, not only mean that you will have the smoothest bass response possible in a domestic setting, but you also have +9 dB gain over having one subwoofer. Along with boundary gain you can get them impressively loud before reaching their limits.
FWIW, I onced designed a double bass array for a friend using three vertical tubes with ~20cm diameter per wall, each tube being about 1.5m long and housing two 5" woofers, one at either end. The tubes, painted white, also doubled up as shades for the indirect room illumination installed behind them. The total volume of the subs was considerabe but yet it was totally unobtrusive and integrated well, aesthetically. Everbody just thought it were designer lamps ;-)
 

thewas

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As for the thread topic, I would say those micro-subs are an engineering solution to a non-existing "yuppie" problem. If you are serious about audio but don't have the space or will to strategically place one or several normal sized subs (like a typical 12") then something is wrong anyway.
That is too much black and white thinking for me, you can still love good audio reproduction but in an also optically nice living space which isn't cluttered with huge ugly boxes which annoy your partners or even yourself.
 

617

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FWIW, I onced designed a double bass array for a friend using three vertical tubes with ~20cm diameter per wall, each tube being about 1.5m long and housing two 5" woofers, one at either end. The tubes, painted white, also doubled up as shades for the indirect room illumination installed behind them. The total volume of the subs was considerabe but yet it was totally unobtrusive and integrated well, aesthetically. Everbody just thought it were designer lamps ;-)
Got pictures? I'd love to see this.
 
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carewser

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Does having multiple subwoofers help with low end extension? I know multiple subs are cruical for even bass response, but do two or more subs play lower when combined then individually?

Wouldn't that depend on the frequency response of each sub? I have 7 different subs sometimes running simultaneously so I just figured that I add up the frequency response of all of them and divide them by 7 to get an average and while that doesn't take the room into account, it's as close as I can get. Unless you're talking about multiples of the same sub in which case i'm pretty sure that wouldn't change the frequency response, only the volume
 

voodooless

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Multiple subs will inevitably help with low-end extension, as in: you will have more output capability down low. But practically that is mostly the case with closed sub's where you do not have so much roll-off. The major upshot however is that it will smooth the frequency response. Where one sub could create a gaping hole at 35 Hz, another could fill that if strategically placed. Note that with only a few subs you could already get quite a relatively smooth response. For instance with two subs in the middle of opposing walls. After that, it's mostly diminishing returns for smoothness, but you do gain more low-end capacity.
 
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carewser

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^By "low end capacity" do you mean volume?

Does anyone else here own a small sub?
 

Run23

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I’ve had the K62 sub for a couple of weeks in our den area (with LS50 ii wireless), and I’ve been blown away by the low end coming out of this thing, which seems impossible given its size. This is replacing an 12 inch SVS that I’m holding for my brother while he’s deployed, and it keeps up in pretty much every way, with many caveats. Price aside, and specs aside as I’m just giving it an ear test mostly, it’s perfect for what I need.

1. I live in an apartment (well insulated for sound), but still an apartment. I’m guessing my max listening level is around 85db at 10 feet away from my speakers. I didn’t measure with an spl meter, but in my recording studio I’m religious about having one of my mixing levels be 85db on my near fields, so I have 85db burned into my brain. My average listening level is probably in the mid 70s?- I’m not great at estimating between 2 dB points.

2. The K62 doesn’t have the output to keep up (maybe around 25-30 hz?) when I crank the system well above 85db, but I never really listen this loud so I don’t care, and if I do it’s for a short time to pump myself up or something so I’m not really listening critically.

3. The den where I have this set up is a bad room- 2 walls of windows, a tile floor, and a concrete ceiling, and (after a little work placing the sub and adding in some strategic room treatment) it sounds great. So the K62 seems to take well to bad rooms, as do the LSW50s.

4. Using the KEF system for home theater is secondary to music for me (I like going to movies for the full experience), and with that criteria I think it works well. But, for wall shaking explosions on the low end where you want that extra 10db (i tested it playing the first robbery in Heat, with the truck smashing into the armor car and the armored car’s door being blown), you need a bigger subwoofer. Again, I really don’t care about that, and the KEF still sounds great, it just may not give you that room shaking rattle and thump for big volume jumps, like sudden explosions, in movies.

5. If space weren’t an issue I’d get 2 subs for around the same price as the K62. I mean maybe not though, as it’s not like I feel like I’m missing anything. Sure, when I use my recording/mixing engineer ears, I can sometimes hear an awkward transition in the bass with a hump that could theoretically be smoothed out, but that’s not how I listen to music. Almost all recorded music, probably all, is a series of compromises made when recording and mixing, and has the quirks and preferences of whoever recorded, mixed and mastered the recording. I mean the final product has to sound good through a high end system, speakers in bar, in a bass thumpy SUV, on computer speakers, AirPods etc. if everyone listened to music through the exact same ‘audiophile’ system, every recording could be mixed better to fit that system, but bring in another listening system, and it may sound worse.

So a very, very long way of saying that the KEF62 with the LSW50s gets me to a place where I can fully enjoy the music and not listen to the system. That point is obviously different for everyone, but I’m more than satisfied in my technical ‘downgrade’ from systems I’ve had before. I’m not trying to belittle the audiophile hobby or anything, and I’m lucky to be able to get my obsessive sound tweaking tendencies out when mixing so I can just find a good system and enjoy the music when listening recreationally.

TLDR: for an apartment where space is an issue and where you don’t get too much above 85db, the K62 will give you what you would get out of a much bigger subwoofer.

[edit]- funny enough I don’t think the LSW50s even really need a sub for the most part, depending on what kind of music you listen to. The bass goes pretty deep (sounds like mid, maybe even low?!? 40s, for some reason I never actually checked the specs), which is crazy for such tiny speakers and I have trouble believing my ears. But this is the first time I’ve used such small speakers, so maybe this is common now(?!). I just like that low end pound for EDM and hip hop so I wanted to find the smallest sub I could to replace the space hogging SVS, but seriously, I was surprised at how good the bass sounded without adding a sub]
 
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KMO

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And I'm going to second everything Run23 says about the KC62 as regards to its big brother the KF92. That gives you more oomph (+5dB more by specs) while remaining in a pretty damned compact package. The KC62 is "micro", and the cleverer piece of engineering to achieve that, but if you can stretch to "mini", the KF92 is a really pretty little thing. Can shake my room as much as I need/want all the way into subsonic frequencies.

funny enough I don’t think the LSW50s even really need a sub for the most part, depending on what kind of music you listen to. The bass goes pretty deep (sounds like mid, maybe even low?!? 40s

Yep, the LS50WIIs can certainly get down to below 50Hz in-room. The LS50 Meta is already impressive, but the Wireless II has DSP-enhanced bass extension. Relevant snippet from the White paper:

There are three settings, which should be chosen in conjunction with the room acoustics The “Less” setting is similar to the natural bass extension of the passive version, giving a cut-off frequency of 46Hz (-6dB). The “Standard” and “Extra” settings give cutoff frequencies of 43Hz and 40Hz respectively.

Normally, the “Extra” setting will be chosen, unless there is a particularly bad room resonance around 30- 40Hz, where one of the higher cut-off settings will compensate.

In addition, there is a dynamic bass stage that limits the driver excursion whatever the setting. This prevents excessive distortion and protects the driver from possible damage. The application is practically unnoticeable - however the effect is creating a loudspeaker that sounds larger than it actually is.

Should the user prefer to be unbounded by the limitations of a small bass driver, there is always the option of adding one or two subwoofers.
 
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carewser

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Whoever the OP is, he's an idiot because he didn't specify what constitutes a microsub or a minisub because I suspect almost all my subs falls into these two categories
 

Nevi

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I have the KEF set. I started with the first LS 50 I, but when the next came out I had to have it. Because there was so many good tests, but mostly because especially the high mid tone, and treble was cleaner. And when the KC 62 was coupled on, I was sold.

I use it in a near field set up to when I use my computer, but also to general listening. I'm very happy with the combination. The next best sub I have had, was a Paradigm PS 12 subwoofer. One 12 inch heavy duty speaker in a vented box. It was another flat, but somehow this sub was coupling so good to the living room, that there was almost completely linear response from 24-25 hz and up.

Then I had to move, and a few months after I got the first Kef speaker. As I hear it now, it's one of the best speaker set-ups I have had. I have had Magnepan speakers, Audiostatic electrostatic loudspeakers, Lowther Horns, Martin Logans and more. They were all good, but I think the Kef combination accelerate especially in the big open dynamic soundstage with plenty of depth. But I know in a couple of years something exciting happens again. Until then my audiophile sickness is held at bay.

It's great to be an audiophile.
 
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carewser

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I was alerted to some activity in this thread today and noticed that when I posted in May 2021 I only owned 7 subs but i've picked up 3 more since then, 2 by Paradigm and 1 by Logitech but before you all start razzing me about my Logitech Z313 sub I got it for free because someone in my neighborhood couldn't be bothered to try and sell it (because they'd probably only get ~$20 for it) so they just left it out on the boulevard but it's in great shape and it's actually one of my favorite subs. It's a 4" foam surround paper driver encased in what can only be described as a cute little subwoofer that only weighs 3 or 4 pounds that can fit in my hand with it's own 15 watt amp inside and before you start laughing at the sort of bass it produces, you really have to hear it, i'm not saying it will rattle the windows or anything but it's actually pretty impressive as there's definitely some bass that pumps out from it's little port. It makes my 6 1/2" subs seem huge by comparison. Logitech claims it's frequency response is 48hz-20khz and I believe it because I've compared it with the bass from my Audioengine's A5+ speakers and my Kanto Tuk's and they're all surprisingly close. You can say what you want about Logitech being lo-fi garbage but their subs actually produce reasonably deep bass, i've owned a few of them and they've always impressed me.

The two Paradigm subs I picked up are another story although neither are big, one's an 8" and the other a 10" driver with dual 9" passive radiators although it's in a small enclosure. I had to really bug the guy to sell me the 10" Paradigm sub over the internet even though it was old he still wanted $240 for it which I was all too happy to pay once I caught wind of the specs of this beast, as in 650 watts RMS/1950 watts peak power and accurate down to 22hz. When it sold back in 2007 the Paradigm Ultracube 10 subwoofer listed for $1350. On new year's eve I met my neighbor that lives in the house next door after she dropped by to tell me that their house was rattling because of my music and that's mostly due to this sub. It's the same 10" driver that Paradigm uses in their terrifying Sub 2 (although the Sub 2 has 6 of the 10" drivers in it). Paradigm describes the driver as a, "254-mm (10 in) RCR™ mineral-filled co-polymer polypropylene cone, 38-mm (1-1/2 in) 4-layer voice-coil, dual spiders, AVS™ die-cast heatsink chassis." In other words, fucking heavy duty. The 8" sub I got came in the Millenia CT2 system and the bass it produces on the other hand is disappointing even though I couldn't buy this unit fast enough once it was on sale as Paradigm claims the bass goes down to 28hz. The sad truth is the bass doesn't go below ~45hz although at 80 watts RMS it's powerful enough for most people. It's also one of the weirdest looking subs i've ever seen and easily the weirdest looking sub I own as it's only 5 or 6 inches wide and in a metal enclosure with two little bass ports on the left side:
image.php
 
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dlaloum

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I don't know whether it qualifies as a mini/micro sub.... but the Gallo TR1 - which hit the market around 2007/2008 I think - is pretty compact.

A little constrained right at the bottom end - goes down to about 25Hz - but very musical / accurate... no boominess, gets low end right within its limitations.

I have two of these - although only one is currently in use - am hoping that in the near future with DIRAC DLBC and/or DIRAC Unison - I will recommission my 2nd one, and achieve further low end extension - while keeping that taught accuracy that I love.

A Bass singer should sound like a bass singer - and not like a chesty baritone.... for opera - and the sound of double bass, or a tight kick drum - so many setups get it wrong.

I believe the more current TR-1D and TR-3D have improved on the TR-1, but mostly in the levels they can drive at.

6moons reviewed it a long time ago, as did soundandvision and a few others (mostly as part of Nucleus Micro or A'Diva setups) ...

Sad to see Gallo give up on their high end aspiration, with the discontinuing of the LS5 speakers - where the low end solution was 12 x 4" woofers / sub-woofers set up as a line source....

Seems to me multiple small or micro (like the gallo 4" example) subs are a better solution to accurate bass, than a small number of larger ones.
 

Paolo

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Seeing how much interest there is for micro-subs, I’d love to see SVS 3000 Micro and Kef KC62 measured using CEA2010 protocol.
Yeah, having trustworthy data would be nice. But I wonder, how do you accurately measure an opposing driver sub with the Klippel?
 
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