Mind Blown. What next?

[2Sunny]

Okay I'm down to two choices to test more expensive speakers, and I'd like to know people's opinion on these two choices. Again the purpose is purely academic to see if I can hear any difference from my current Revel F36s just for curiousity's sake, but of course since I intend to purchase these I expect I will be keeping them in my HT which consists of the following (not including the towers): 5.2.4, Ascend Acoustics Duo V2 LCR center, Revel M16 rear surrounds, SVS Prime Elevation (2 front heights), Klipsch RP-500SA (2 rear height), dual SVS SB-1000 Pro subs, connected to a Sony STRAZ5000ES AVR, and an OutLaw 5000x amp.

So the choices are:

Ascend Acoustics ELX w/ Titan Dome
Revel F208

I'm leaning towards the Ascend Acoustics for 3 reasons. 1) Amir gave them a perfect preference number of 7.0 whilst the F208 got a 6.6, 2) I'd like to try a non-Revel product, and 3) they're much lighter so moving them around is something I can do by myself not true of the F208s, but the Revel has 2 advantages in my mind, 1) bigger 8 inch woofers, and 2) it IS a Revel so a very good comparison to it's cheaper brother.

So . . . what says the forum?

And, please no offense, but I'd appreciate comments on the system components be left for another discussion. I'm just interested in folks opinion on the two choices.

 

[kyuu]

I'm leaning towards the Ascend Acoustics for 3 reasons. 1) Amir gave them a perfect preference number of 7.0 whilst the F208 got a 6.6

Only thing I'll say is that a 0.4 difference in the preference score is essentially meaningless. Don't rely on small differences in the preference score to tell you anything. Also, Amir does not use the preference score or calculate preference scores for anything he reviews.

 

[2Sunny]

Well in this crazy mixed up world the story has taken multiple turns over the last 24 hours. First, I fessed up to my wife and she went ballistic so I promised to try and cancel the order for the F208s which I was able to do(thanks Jeffrey!), but then miraculously just now she came back and said go ahead (I think my having the Big C gets me a ton of sympathy) so just now I ordered F226Be's from Crutchfield. Should be here sometime next week. Decided to switch to F226Be instead of F208s when I learned the 226's beat the 208's in a head to head comparison.

ShootOut

 

[Oddball]

Hope you enjoy them and let us know how you like your new purchase. They are definitively amazing speakers.

And don't Google 328s or read Amir's review of them, otherwise...who knows .

Know you asked not to reference other gear, but just to keep in mind, there is a center to match with those if needed/desired...

Revel PerformaBe F226Be Tower & C426Be Center Loudspeakers Review

We reviewed the Revel Performa F226Be, a three-way floor-standing speaker, and the C426Be, a monster three-way center speaker using four 6.5" bass drivers to see if they live up to the brand reputation.

www.audioholics.com

 

[regan]

I fessed up to my wife and she went ballistic so I promised to try and cancel the order for the F208s which I was able to do(thanks Jeffrey!), but then miraculously just now she came back and said go ahead

Jesus... No idea how some of you guys can live like that.

Anyway, congrats on your new speakers and curious to hear your experience

 

[Keith_W]

(I think my having the Big C gets me a ton of sympathy)

Sorry to hear that. Hopefully treatment will turn the Big C to a small c. And if you are lucky, no c at all.

 

[2Sunny]

Certain this will come as no surprise to the regulars here, but yesterday I enlisted the help of my son and installed my 4 height speakers in new locations using BS-218Pro speaker mounts. I'm sure there are locations that might be even better, but the overhead effect was already good the way I had things setup before, but the new location has brought Atmos effects to a whole new level so once again Mind Blown

EDIT: Hah - taking the photo made me realize I need to hide those back speaker wires.

 

[Philbo King]

Thanks as always for the input everyone. Much appreciated always. A few notes.

-I did recently buy a UMIK-1 and plan on learning to use REW so theres that.

-I've tried the front speakers separated to the room edges and everywhere in between and like the sound stage best right where they are.

-The front heights are where they are for reasons of happy wife. She will not permit wall mounting anywhere near the wall lights which came from her childhood home, and as it is I have tested scenes from Midway, Unbroken, Incredibles 2, Roma, and many others and the Atmos effect is excellent although I'm sure it could be even better if I could wall mount the front heights, but its just not an option for me

-I choose the Sony AVR for the 360 Spatial Sound Mapping. If you have a HT and haven't tried this then you are missing out. It is amazing and WAY better than DIRAC which I used on my old Onkyo TX-NR7100 which I had prior to the Sony. I'm sure for music other AVRs would be better, but for movies the Sony ES series with 360 SSM can't be beat in my mind.

-The entertainment center and position of the center channel are a must for reasons of marital stability as well, BUT I previously had a smaller Klipsch that I tilted downward and the Sony 360 SSM absolutely put the "phantom" sound dead center of the MLP. The unit in the picture is a Kef R2 Meta that I thought would fit, but turns out it is too big so I ordered an Ascend Acoustics Duo V2 LCR which is much smaller and which should allow me to tilt it down as I did the Klipsch. I expect Sony 360 SSM will adjust that perfectly as well.

-I promise to test the subwoofers once I learn how to us REW, but research online shows the current position is probably the ideal one.

-I retired when I got the Big C 2 years ago, but prior to that I was a Captain for United on the two planes that are colliding; the last job was a B777 cap. It was way fun, and I really am sorry I had to retire almost a decade early but at least now I have more time to enjoy my hobbies. The YouTube video is me landing in Poznan Poland carrying some 300 U.S. troops on a militay charter out of Kansas.

I do have a follow on question for the forum though:

In my search for expensive speaker options I'm spending a lot of time looking at ON AXIS spinorama graphs. When I see dips or rises of say 2.8 dB is that really noticeable? The reason I ask is because looking online I find that some folks studying sound technology say the human ear really can't discern anything less than a 3dB change. Do folks here agree? Is 3 dB kinda the threshold worth looking for on a spinorama ON AXIS graphs?



View attachment 438662

[Off topic]
B777? Interesting. While working at Collins Aerospace (current name), I put 10 or 12 years into 777 Autopilot and Mode Panel design. The earlier mode panels used a fluorescent tube to backlight the LCD displays. During my time there we converted the backlight to use white quantum well LEDs (around the mid-90s). One of the more stringent requirements was that it needed to be dimmable over a 50000:1 range; difficult for a fluorescent light, and somewhat challenging even for LEDs... A super interesting job.

I retired shortly before they were bought out by Raytheon in 2018.

 

[2Sunny]

[Off topic]
B777? Interesting. While working at Collins Aerospace (current name), I put 10 or 12 years into 777 Autopilot and Mode Panel design. The earlier mode panels used a fluorescent tube to backlight the LCD displays. During my time there we converted the backlight to use white quantum well LEDs (around the mid-90s). One of the more stringent requirements was that it needed to be dimmable over a 50000:1 range; difficult for a fluorescent light, and somewhat challenging even for LEDs... A super interesting job.

I retired shortly before they were bought out by Raytheon in 2018.

Well my eyes say thank you. I came off the Airbus and the mode panels there were terrible because they weren't bright enough during the day, but the triple panels were light years better than Airbus and just so much easier to read but perfectly dimmable at night as well.

That's me on my initial training flight as captain. On my way to gay Pareeee

 

[2Sunny]

Hope you enjoy them and let us know how you like your new purchase. They are definitively amazing speakers.

And don't Google 328s or read Amir's review of them, otherwise...who knows .

Know you asked not to reference other gear, but just to keep in mind, there is a center to match with those if needed/desired...

Revel PerformaBe F226Be Tower & C426Be Center Loudspeakers Review

We reviewed the Revel Performa F226Be, a three-way floor-standing speaker, and the C426Be, a monster three-way center speaker using four 6.5" bass drivers to see if they live up to the brand reputation.

www.audioholics.com

Looking back I see I forgot to update my experience with the F226s. I'm pretty sure I updated somewhere, but the long and short of it was that I was very very wrong when I started the poll on Diminishing Returns. Even for me with my not so great hearing the difference between the Revel F36s and the F226s is noticeable so put me down as a believer that the Point of Diminishing Returns on speakers is well above my initial guess. Glad to be wrong. I would hate to have spent all that money for no reason, hah!

 

[2Sunny]

Sorry to hear that. Hopefully treatment will turn the Big C to a small c. And if you are lucky, no c at all.

Oh and good news on that front as well. I had a PET Scan on Monday April 15th and there are no signs of cancer in my body at all so I'm considered to be in full remission. If that lasts for 3 more years doctors will consider me "cured" which if that happens would be a true miracle considering on Oct. '23 I was diagnosed Stage IV rectal cancer which had a 98% probability of death within a year. Chemo, radiation, and surgery were not fun, but now you can count me as one happy guy!

 

[Philbo King]

Well my eyes say thank you. I came off the Airbus and the mode panels there were terrible because they weren't bright enough during the day, but the triple panels were light years better than Airbus and just so much easier to read but perfectly dimmable at night as well.

That's me on my initial training flight as captain. On my way to gay Pareeee

View attachment 446510View attachment 446510

[More OT stuff]
It's gratifying to hear your appreciation! The amount of testing these boxes went through was astounding to me (as a neophyte in avionics design at the time). There was 2G random 3 axis vibration, optical tests with photometer and colorimeter, lightning/RF EMI/EMP exposure testing, and design requiring fault-free performance in the face of any 2 circuit nodes up to 6mm apart being shorted; a comprehensive list would require a few hundred pages. A good bit more robust than average consumer grade electronics...

I'm glad to hear your PET scan was clear. That sort of stuff is no picnic. Aging is only for the tough.

 

[middlemarch]

@2Sunny. One suggestion with respect to the wiring for your Atmos speakers, go to Home Depot and get a handfull of these wire management. You can run them adjacent to the molding in the room and then paint them wall color. Easy to install, peel and stick, a little paint and they almost disappear from a distance.

And some more OT stuff. @Philbo King You're fortunate you retired before the Raytheon purchase. I did 20 great years with Hughes Aircraft before we were purchased by Raytheon. Ten more years with them, counting the days until I could retire. Became familiar with the term "What is it about being bought you don't understand?"

 

[Philbo King]

@2Sunny. One suggestion with respect to the wiring for your Atmos speakers, go to Home Depot and get a handfull of these wire management. You can run them adjacent to the molding in the room and then paint them wall color. Easy to install, peel and stick, a little paint and they almost disappear from a distance.

And some more OT stuff. @Philbo King You're fortunate you retired before the Raytheon purchase. I did 20 great years with Hughes Aircraft before we were purchased by Raytheon. Ten more years with them, counting the days until I could retire. Became familiar with the term "What is it about being bought you don't understand?"

Yeah, I was able to read the room. Highly paid 60+ years old employees never fare well after a company buyout.

 

[2Sunny]

Just thought I'd follow up here in case someone else comes new to this hobby and is going through a similar learning process.

Obviously I've been paying much more attention to the quality of sound in my system and playing around with all sorts of settings to try and learn more and more. One thing that peaked my interest this week was a desire to go back and compare my Revel F36s to the F226s again first using REW and then with my son who is an accomplished musician with a very discerning ear. We spent literally hours listening to streaming music (I'm now using Tidal instead of Spotify), DVD music, and various movie scenes. What we both came to realize is that the difference between the 2 speakers is teeny-tiny and not noticeable in most material. So this brings me to what I consider to be a major epiphany for me.

I (and that's a capital I with an exclamation point) . . . I believe that the F36 speaker represents the maximum I need to spend on a speaker to achieve what for me is my "End Game" (as a corollary I will be selling my F226s ).

The F36 is available at A&B for $1400 for a pair whereas the F226s are $5700. For me I clearly do not need to spend $5k for such a tiny difference in sound

but . . .

that's what's great about this hobby. We are all free to like whatever we want and to spend whatever makes us happy. At the end of the day so long as we are happy with what we have I think we all come out ahead of those that are always seeking the next best "thing".

As an interesting sidebar I found this video. I am aware this particular YouTuber is not terribly popular here, but he is none the less very popular outside ARS with over 400k subscribers and has listened to many, many more speakers than most of us can ever hope to so I think his views are of some interest. Anyways, the point of this review is that he ends up saying he felt the Polk R700s were "End Game" speakers for him, and they are a mere $2200 per pair. To be fair I think he has since changed his mind, but I did find his discussion of gatekeepers of the industry interesting.

 

[Vacceo]

As an interesting sidebar I found this video. I am aware this particular YouTuber is not terribly popular here, but he is none the less very popular outside ARS with over 400k subscribers and has listened to many, many more speakers than most of us can ever hope to so I think his views are of some interest. Anyways, the point of this review is that he ends up saying he felt the Polk R700s were "End Game" speakers for him, and they are a mere $2200 per pair. To be fair I think he has since changed his mind, but I did find his discussion of gatekeepers of the industry interesting.

Without testing, his conclusions are as worthy as yours. It does not matter how many speakers he has listened to, you do not have his brain nor his preferences, so replicability is not possible.

And to consider that truth is truth, no matter who says it, there is something on your paragraph that can definetly be considered such: you do not have to spend tens of thousands to have fantastic speakers.

 

[Mort]

I went the other direction and traded in my $5k passives for $10k Genelec actives after considerable a/b testing. Both were excellent. I even preferred the cheaper in quick a/b transition but after a while the other proved superior.

 

[Vacceo]

I went the other direction and traded in my $5k passives for $10k Genelec actives after considerable a/b testing. Both were excellent. I even preferred the cheaper in quick a/b transition but after a while the other proved superior.

And you saved the amps while at it, not a bad trade.

 

[2Sunny]

More proof I am not an audiophile

I had another mind blowing experience just now. First the why. As I said above I purchased Ascend Acoustic towers so I can compare them to my Revels, but as I have been thinking about my recent experiences I have been considering buying Revel F35s which are currently selling for $450 each on Crutchfield just to add them to the mix so the range of prices would be $450 (F35), $1200 (F36), $2200 (AA ELX), $3850 (F226) but I was perusing the Amir F35 review thread when a poster mentioned simply buying M16s because they were essentially mini F35s so I realized I have M16s and could try them now. Just now I plugged them in and listened . . . Holy Moly Batman . . . my mind is blown AGAIN! I should preface this remark by saying I test all the speakers with my subs connected. I realize not everyone agrees with that methodology when comparing speakers, but I'm of the opinion that I will ALWAYS have a sub connected so that really is how I should test any speaker.

Again, this is super-duper biased and subjective and I get that, but to put it simply I was absolutely floored by how good the little M16s sound as compared to my F36s (which I previously determined were essentially equal to my F226s to my untrained poor ears ). I get the fact that true audiophiles will hear enough of a difference in such a setup as to make them want more, but I cranked the M16s up loud enough so as to shake the house and I hear no difference between the M16s and the F36s. What that says to me is that I could have purchased F35s just because I like the look of towers versus bookshelf speakers on a stand and been more than happy. That's $900 for a pair of F35s versus $7700 for a pair of F226s. All this takes me back to one of my early posts where I asked others where they felt the Point of Diminishing returns lies for them. Well as of this moment I'm firmly in the camp that it's a Revel F35 at $900 a pair if one is talking about passive tower speakers.

 

[JoshK]

I didn't read all the thread, so it might have been said before, but coming from someone who was deep into the upgrade craze for 3.5 decades, do yourself a favor and learn to optimize what you got in your room first. It is seriously more important than this little upgrade or that.

First, if your SO will let you get away with it, bring those speakers out onto the rug a few feet in front of your screen at the least. That hard surface's reflections really messes with imaging. Next, as others have said learn to measure your room's response and start with experimenting with some room treatments at first reflection points, possibly the ceiling (again if you can get away with it). You would be surprised what mediocre speakers (yours are clearly above that!) can do if all the rest is done well.

Enjoy the tunes, and learn to love what you have!

Edit, if you can't leave the speakers out well onto that rug full time, you can at least experiment with it. This is more for stereo, by try it out doing the equilateral triangle setup as an experiment. Then back it to a more reasonable position that gives you 98% of that. You can also mark this spot subtly with masking tape or something else and move them while enjoying and move them back otherwise.