Midrange dome drivers banned ?

[gene_stl]

Nobody needs to tell me who Yamaha is. I have been listening though them since the mid 70s. Before I would spend $15,000 US on the NS 5000
I would find a pair of NS-2000 or for that money one might well find a nice Japanese pair of the mighty GF-1 four way actives. or NSX-1000. or the FX-3.
Newer doesn't always mean better.

 

[jtgofish]

Nobody needs to tell me who Yamaha is. I have been listening though them since the mid 70s. Before I would spend $15,000 US on the NS 5000
I would find a pair of NS-2000 or for that money one might well find a nice Japanese pair of the mighty GF-1 four way actives. or NSX-1000. or the FX-3.
Newer doesn't always mean better.

Nobody needs to tell me who Yamaha is. I have been listening though them since the mid 70s. Before I would spend $15,000 US on the NS 5000
I would find a pair of NS-2000 or for that money one might well find a nice Japanese pair of the mighty GF-1 four way actives. or NSX-1000. or the FX-3.
Newer doesn't always mean better.

But have you heard them?The NS 1000s/2000s1200s/690s and even 75Ts are nowhere near them.

 

[EJ3]

I think the reason they stopped using Beryllium is more due to cost than environmental concerns.

Why SHURE stopped making Beryllium styluses (styli?):
Health effects
Workers in industries where beryllium is present may be exposed to beryllium by inhaling or contacting beryllium in the air or on surfaces. Inhaling or contacting beryllium can cause an immune response that results in an individual becoming sensitized to beryllium. Individuals with beryllium sensitization are at risk for developing a debilitating disease of the lungs called chronic beryllium disease (CBD) if they inhale airborne beryllium after becoming sensitized. Beryllium-exposed workers may also develop other adverse health effects such as acute beryllium disease, and lung cancer. Family members of workers who work with beryllium also have potential exposure from contaminated work clothing and vehicles. Beryllium melts at 1287°C, 2349°F, 1560 K and boils at 2468°C, 4474°F, 2741 K.
(SHURE was using a Beryllium vapor deposit system)
Since the 1980's when SHURE was using Beryllium, the ability to obtain it has become easier because it is now being used in quite a # of things and the control of it's manufacturing process has become better, vastly reducing the possibilities of Beryllium powder or Beryllium gas exposure.
The USA only has 1 Beryllium mine.

 

[gene_stl]

I take a great deal of personal responsibility for my health. It is my opinion that for many things safety regulations (which I am NOT opposed to) still have become often too restrictive and aimed at the absolutely lowest common denominator. The elimination of lead from solder is probably my favorite example.
Thus I am willing to use solvents, solvent based coatings, acids that are becoming harder to get and other things that the state of california has determined may cause cancer.

But I don't play with beryllium. I would never use a beryllium driver that did not have the cage on it. The pure metal probably does not present too much of a hazard but because of its stiffness I think it can shatter yielding sharp edges. In another life I do some gem cutting and beryls are one of the things a person can cut but I think I will generally leave those alone, even though synthetic emerald and other beryls(beryllium oxide) are available. Beryllium is on the list of things I don't play with. (along with hydrofluoric acid, organomercurials, toxic gases such as mercury, fluorine , arsine , phosphine etc. and certain radiochemicals)

As much as I love beryllium drivers if I were a manufacturer I wouldn't even consider doing anything like it. Berylliosis is an ugly condition with not much liklehood of cure. Ocassionally one sees be drivers with the cages removed. No thank you. But as long as the diaphragm and cage are intact I don't mind having them. One could almost make a moral case against their existence. But they do exist and I like the way they sound. They measure quite well too. (See Toole page 453)

No I have not heard the new Zylon drivers. I am not very interested in them because there is zero chance I would ever buy them. ( I would need three or even five of them) If they have a suite next time (if ever) I go to a show I will take a look listen. I avoid audio stores. I consider them to be disreputable places.

But have you heard them?The NS 1000s/2000s1200s/690s and even 75Ts are nowhere near them.

We have only your opinion on that. Whereas the NS1000 drivers and speaker systems have been characterized in two highly regarded textbooks on loudspeakers one in the 1970s and one very recently.

When I built my big speakers in the mid 70s I bought the Yamaha Be drivers unheard. I was quite lucky to have guessed right. Even wholesale they were quite expensive. About $4,000 1977 US dollars.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Perhaps just perhaps Yamaha being manufacturers of some of the worlds best musical instruments and state of the art motorcycles might have some insight into materials and their application?
Has anybody here even heard the NS5000s?I have.

Yamaha is a huge company with a large range of products.
Making musical instruments, where the vibration of the materials used is how the sound is created is very different from making a loudspeaker where all good manufacturers try their best to prevent their loudspeaker adding to the sound it is trying to reproduce. The way they do this is to make as inert a cabinet as budget allows and either pistonic drivers or well damped drivers.
I would be surprised if people from the music instrument departments have any more influence over their loudspeaker designers than people from their motorcycle department.

 

[Frank Dernie]

Has anybody here even heard the NS5000s?

A friend of mine was a consultant in their design. I haven't heard them personally though.
I would imagine they are excellent since they are very well engineered.

 

[Savi]

I would be surprised if people from the music instrument departments have any more influence over their loudspeaker designers than people from their motorcycle department.

I thought exactly the same. I work in a huge group leader in different areas (engine, rocket, systems, equipment...) and it is occasional and difficult to exchange views with similar field colleagues and it never happens with far field colleagues but perhaps Yamaha is different...

 

[Frank Dernie]

I thought exactly the same. I work in a huge group leader in different areas (engine, rocket, systems, equipment...) and it is occasional and difficult to exchange views with similar field colleagues and it never happens with far field colleagues but perhaps Yamaha is different...

Unless they have a central corporate materials science department I also would expect not either based on my experience.

 

[dualazmak]

Nobody needs to tell me who Yamaha is. I have been listening though them since the mid 70s. Before I would spend $15,000 US on the NS 5000
I would find a pair of NS-2000 or for that money one might well find a nice Japanese pair of the mighty GF-1 four way actives. or NSX-1000. or the FX-3.
Newer doesn't always mean better.

I believe you mean "NSX-10000", and not NSX-1000, right?
https://audio-heritage.jp/YAMAHA/speaker/nsx-10000.html

(It would be sometimes confusing since they have NS-1000X also...)

Even in Japan, I seldom find a pair of NSX-10000 in auction or second markets.

 

[dualazmak]

I found very nice critical article on NS-5000 for which I almost fully agree with.
https://www.audio-masterfiles.com/masterfiles/file056/file56-4.html

Hope your web browser will properly translate the article into English. The article includes some reference to NSX-10000.
(Please be patient before the full appearance of the article, looks the web server for the article is very slow...)

I listened to NS-5000 at YAMAHA's debut promotion event, but I found my multichannel multi-amplifier system with NS-1000 sounds fairly better than NS-5000. Maybe, the "bass reflex" design of NS-5000 does not fit for my preferences, and I also found/confirmed again the Be-midrange of NS-1000 is still the best.

 

[Doodski]

Hope your web browser will properly translate the article into English. The article includes some reference to NSX-10000.

No Japanese to English translation but the webpage has great pictures. Your multi-amplified system has so many advantages.

 

[dualazmak]

No Japanese to English translation but the webpage has great pictures. Your multi-amplified system has so many advantages.

Please try Google Chrome; in my PC, it translates the article into English quite nicely. I did it also successfully with Microsoft Edge.

 

[Doodski]

Please try Google Chrome; in my PC, it translates the article into English quite nicely. I did it also successfully with Microsoft Edge.

Ahhh.. I opened the web page a second time using Chrome again and this time it translated. The fist time I attempted it took ~3 minutes to open the complete webpage.

 

[dualazmak]

Ahhh.. I opened the web page a second time using Chrome again and this time it translated. The fist time I attempted it took ~3 minutes to open the complete webpage.

Looks the web server for the article is very slow, but the contents are nice.

 

[Doodski]

Please try Google Chrome; in my PC, it translates the article into English quite nicely. I did it also successfully with Microsoft Edge.

I sold home audio gear in the 1980s for 9 years and we had the NS1000 or NS1000M with no metal screen over the woofers. The speaker was a limited production unit and we sold all of them within ~2 weeks. We could not get more. The company buyer attempted over several months to get more but Yamaha said there was no more for Canada. We where the biggest Yamaha dealer in Canada at the time and if we couldn't get those then there was a issue with inventory levels. I've sold multi-millions of dollars of Yamaha gear in the past. In a very good month like December I could sell ~$100K of product. Yamaha is very good product, easy to sell and the customers loved it.

 

[jtgofish]

I found very nice critical article on NS-5000 for which I almost fully agree with.
https://www.audio-masterfiles.com/masterfiles/file056/file56-4.html

Hope your web browser will properly translate the article into English. The article includes some reference to NSX-10000.

I listened to NS-5000 at YAMAHA's debut promotion event, but I found my multichannel multi-amplifier system with NS-1000 sounds fairly better than NS-5000. Maybe, the "bass reflex" design of NS-5000 does not fit for my preferences, and I also found/confirmed again the Be-midrange of NS-1000 is still the best.

Well you are obviously one of those people who can't hear image depth because the NS1000 are very poor in that area.And regardless of how you much like the tonal qualities of the beryllium midrange [and I do too] any speaker that can't do centre fill and image depth is not worth owning.Or maybe only one of them.I have a friend who has owned three pairs of them and each time has ended up selling them for that reason.He even tried fabricating wave guides to try to fix the problem.He has also owned NS1200s and they are the same.
Here is a review which praises the NS5000s.
Like any highly revealing speaker they have to be matched with the right system however.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiu7Mjnj6HyAhUEYysKHYoXBtAQFnoECBEQAQ&url=https://www.soundstageaustralia.com/index.php/reviews/114-yamaha-ns-5000-loudspeakers&usg=AOvVaw3_d7Kis0V5w7ACcWINgige

 

[Frank Dernie]

Well you are obviously one of those people who can't hear image depth because the NS1000 are very poor in that area.And regardless of how you much like the tonal qualities of the beryllium midrange [and I do too] any speaker that can't do centre fill and image depth is not worth owning.Or maybe only one of them.I have a friend who has owned three pairs of them and each time has ended up selling them for that reason.He even tried fabricating wave guides to try to fix the problem.He has also owned NS1200s and they are the same.
Here is a review which praises the NS1000s.
Like any highly revealing speaker they have to be matched with the right system however.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiu7Mjnj6HyAhUEYysKHYoXBtAQFnoECBEQAQ&url=https://www.soundstageaustralia.com/index.php/reviews/114-yamaha-ns-5000-loudspeakers&usg=AOvVaw3_d7Kis0V5w7ACcWINgige

I have owned NS1000Ms for decades.
They are in a secondary system now but I will never sell them.

Their stereo performance is strongly dependant on room position, as with all speakers.

It seems common for people to dick about with equipment rather than room and listener position because of the feeling that it is the equipment rather than the room which most strongly effects this. Over the last half century of messing about with this I am 100% sure stereo imaging is at least as much room and furnishing dependant as speaker dependant, probably more (though I have only experimented with about 20 different speakers and none of them were completely rubbish).
More noise does increase the sensation of stereo depth though.

The review you quote is a typical subjective one full of wild speculation and falsehood and I wouldn't take any notice of any of the conclusions, personally, based on my own experience.

 

[dualazmak]

Well you are obviously one of those people who can't hear image depth because the NS1000 are very poor in that area.
....
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiu7Mjnj6HyAhUEYysKHYoXBtAQFnoECBEQAQ&url=https://www.soundstageaustralia.com/index.php/reviews/114-yamaha-ns-5000-loudspeakers&usg=AOvVaw3_d7Kis0V5w7ACcWINgige

My NS-1000(rev) is now fully renovated eliminating the LC-network and each of the SP drivers is directly driven by dedicated amplifier. Furthermore, I added super-tweeters and L&R rather large and heavy active sub-woofers YST-SW1000. Consequently, the sound of my present multichannel multi-driver multi-way multi-amplifier system with NS-1000(rev) is now far away and much different from the original sound of neat intact NS-1000 for which you are referring... Now, I can well hear the image depth or 3D sound perspectives with my system, and nice "disappearance" of all the SPs. Of course, my listening room environment is one of the critical factors for the wonderful total sound.

If possible, I really would like to invite you to my home for our listening sessions.

 

[gene_stl]

BTW "center fill" and "image depth" not only are room dependent but are mainly illusional , not measureable and completely subjective. Sort of like the "stereo" of pop music that only ever occured inside a mixing console but was never a real acoustic event in time and space. As someone who has been a professional microscopist and photographer and longer than I have been interested in audio (which is about 53 years ) I have always found the "imaging" analogy extremely defective. Sound systems really don't image much. What they do is more of, is to create an illusion. The "image" is created in your brain.

 

[AdamG]

Thread notice: Let’s all take a few deep breaths and remember we’re here to share our passion for Music and it’s reproduction. Any further personal insults will result in Warnings and Thread Bans.

Carry on and enjoy this Sunday afternoon!