mid/side processing to improve phantom image intelligibility

[dougi]

Getting on in years with a bit of tinnitus as well I (and the wife) sometimes find some dialog hard to understand in AV material. I want to stick with a 2.1 system so I don't want the added complication of adding a centre to help with that at this point. I do have an ADI-2 PRO which has mid-side processing I could try. This would require adding an AD/DA loop but this would just be for AV stuff. Perhaps I could bump up the mono/mid volume (ie balance) or eq (perhaps to offset the phantom image 2 kHz-ish dip or more general) to improve. Has anyone got any ideas or experience with this?

 

[andreasmaaan]

Interesting idea. I don't have experience with this when it comes to reproduction, but I do have some experience mixing and mastering. What you intend to try is valid IMO (although I'm not sure about the idea of EQing out the 2kHz phantom centre dip TBH - interesting idea though, will be interested to hear what you impressions are once you've tried).

It sounds like you already basically know what you're doing when it comes to mixing. Is that right? I'd be happy to give you some ideas about what settings to play with if you like. I'm not familiar with the Adi-2 Pro's inbuilt DSP effects, but it sounds pretty standard.

Good luck

 

[dougi]

Interesting idea. I don't have experience with this when it comes to reproduction, but I do have some experience mixing and mastering. What you intend to try is valid IMO (although I'm not sure about the idea of EQing out the 2kHz phantom centre dip TBH - interesting idea though, will be interested to hear what you impressions are once you've tried).

It sounds like you already basically know what you're doing when it comes to mixing. Is that right? I'd be happy to give you some ideas about what settings to play with if you like. I'm not familiar with the Adi-2 Pro's inbuilt DSP effects, but it sounds pretty standard.

Good luck

Yes any brief tips would be appreciated. I've only done limited recording mixing about 20 years ago with a Yamaha O2R. The RME only has EQ/balance/width but I can always put another processor of some kind in the loop, even if this means experimenting in a DAW to start with. It doesn't have a compressor/limiter for instance which might be helpful.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Yes any brief tips would be appreciated. I've only done limited recording mixing about 20 years ago with a Yamaha O2R. The RME only has EQ/balance/width but I can always put another processor of some kind in the loop, even if this means experimenting in a DAW to start with. It doesn't have a compressor/limiter for instance which might be helpful.

Sounds good. I guess before starting with DSP, I'd just do a couple of basic checks on your physical setup to make sure there's nothing you can optimise there. What's the basic room setup, how far are the speakers from nearby boundaries, and how far are you from the speakers? And which speakers are they?

Next thing I'd do would be to take acoustic measurements around the listening position(s), for example using the moving mic measurement method (let us know if you need help with this).

Room modes are a common offender when it comes to harming speech intelligibility, so your DSP may turn out to be as simple as knocking down a few modal peaks with the RME's inbuilt EQ.

In terms of playing with the stereo width using the RME, I doubt this is likely to help, since most dialogue is already quite centred in the mix, and reducing the stereo width won't impact on this much (other than to pull the rest of the soundtrack into the centre with the dialogue).

Using a DAW you will be able to boost the level of the mid relative to the sides, without actually reducing the width of the side channels. This would seem to me a pretty drastic measure though, and I'm pretty confident that some optimisation of speaker placement/orientation and some EQ optimisation are going to be more effective.

What do you think?

 

[Sergei]

I'd recommend to just go to 5.1 configuration for movies. And buying a good 3-way center speaker or studio monitor (I use https://www.adam-audio.com/en/ax-series/a77x/). Such configuration will ensure that:

(1) There are no interference and combing effects from typical 5.1 or 7.1 movie audio down-mixed to 2.1. It is my understanding that not all mixing/mastering engineers obsesssively checked for quality of such down-mixes, especially on more recent titles. Their assumption was that surround sound home theater systems are by now cheap and abundant.

(2) There are less combing effects, typical when speech frequency range is reproduced by 2 or more transducers. A high-quality passive center speaker, or a 3-way studio monitor, typically uses a single dedicated transducer for speech. This makes a huge difference. Please abstain from cheap surround sound systems in a box.

While installing the 5.1 or 7.1 system, it helps to at least place the Left and Right speakers canonically (at 60 degrees), or even slightly wider. This will help with perceptually isolating the dialog: ~80% of its power is usually coming over the center channel in movies. In my experience, quality and precise positioning of the side and back-side speakers is less critical for most real-life movies.

Yet another huge help is "night mode", "reduced dynamic range", or another such mode provided by a consumer-grade surround processor / preamp / amp. While using studio-grade chains for 2.1 systems, I still use old https://hometheaterreview.com/onkyo-pr-sc5508-av-preamp-reviewed/ to watch movies, with its well-known video processor overheating issue fixed through factory upgrade.

 

[dougi]

Given the feedback I think my best approach will be to add a 3.1 (LCR sub) for movies. I have an AVR currently using for a second active system which I can use. (Denon AVR-2310). The trick may be how to best integrate my existing system and match centre to speakers (Wharfedale Heritage Lintons).

The room is large and untreated but modes are dealt with via the RME and RoomPerfect. Still means decay times are fairly long (>0.6-0.8s) and clarity 50 average around 1kHz.

 

[andreasmaaan]

Seems like a good move to me.

Aesthetically, it somehow feels like your only option for the centre channel is to go for another Linton

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Will another Linton for center fit with your monitor?

 

[dougi]

Will another Linton for center fit with your monitor?

Nah, but could get the smaller Denton 85 with the same tweeter potentially.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

I could never conquer the intelligibility problem until a 3 way center was installed a few months ago. I was resorting to close caption. I can now hear dialog at low volumes. I have hearing issues at my age. 2 way centers never worked.

 

[LTig]

@dougi: Does your TV has built in speakers which you could use parallel to the 2.1 system? If yes you could to raise the volume of the TV speakers with respect to the 2.1 system. This should increase intelligibility because FR of TV speakers is more mid centric without destroying to much of the stereo effect. Just try it, it costs nothing.

 

[dougi]

@dougi: Does your TV has built in speakers which you could use parallel to the 2.1 system? If yes you could to raise the volume of the TV speakers with respect to the 2.1 system. This should increase intelligibility because FR of TV speakers is more mid centric without destroying to much of the stereo effect. Just try it, it costs nothing.

Yes it does but being a hifi snob I don't use them of course! Might have to swallow my pride and try.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

TV tinny speakers will not solve intelligibility. Otherwise, just turn off your system when dialogue is not discernable. The real problem relates to movie soundtracks. This issue has existed for a long time. A good 3 way center with good room correction worked for me. I spent 20 years frustrated with this problem. Anthem Room Correction coupled with 3 way center really works. I am sure Dirac also will solve this problem. You still must have a 3 way center. Amir used 3 way Revel for all speakers.

 

[witchdoctor]

I would try to improve my hearing, what if it gets worse?

https://vkool.com/home-remedies-for-hearing-loss/

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Voice dialogue intelligibility precedes hearing loss. But definitely a cute response. So your solution is stop listening to movies or music as one ages. Pathetic.

 

[witchdoctor]

Look at my handle, I am a "witchdoctor". I'm not joking, if you can try and improve your hearing you should. I gave you a list of inexpensive natural remedies. Find a naturopath or OMD in your area and make an appoointment, I think anyone with a hearing issue should check out all possible healing resources, allopathic, naturopathic, and TCM. I didnt mean to offend.

 

[tmtomh]

Getting on in years with a bit of tinnitus as well I (and the wife) sometimes find some dialog hard to understand in AV material. I want to stick with a 2.1 system so I don't want the added complication of adding a centre to help with that at this point. I do have an ADI-2 PRO which has mid-side processing I could try. This would require adding an AD/DA loop but this would just be for AV stuff. Perhaps I could bump up the mono/mid volume (ie balance) or eq (perhaps to offset the phantom image 2 kHz-ish dip or more general) to improve. Has anyone got any ideas or experience with this?

Apologies if I'm being too simplistic here, but I would recommend trying the easiest thing first: basic EQ. For dialogue intelligibility, definitely try boosting 2kHz (and 1kHz and 3kHz too for that matter) - and also try cutting the bass a bit, particularly 125 to about 300Hz. I've found that bass resonances of the lowest registers of voices really muddy the up and that cutting bass can be as effective or even more effective than boosting midrange when it comes to increasing perceptual clarity of voices.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Wowww. Just please try a 3 way center. It works.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

Look at my handle, I am a "witchdoctor". I'm not joking, if you can try and improve your hearing you should. I gave you a list of inexpensive natural remedies. Find a naturopath or OMD in your area and make an appoointment, I think anyone with a hearing issue should check out all possible healing resources, allopathic, naturopathic, and TCM. I didnt mean to offend.

I have practiced law as a trial attorney for over 40 years. Improving my hearing does not help. I'd rather not not hear most of the nonsense subjected to my ears.

 

[LTig]

I would try to improve my hearing, what if it gets worse?

https://vkool.com/home-remedies-for-hearing-loss/

Is there any scientific proof that any of these remedies really work (apart from the placebo effect)?