• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

Microphone for vocal recordings: cardioid or supercardioid?

Cadence

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2021
Messages
29
Likes
9
Hey,

I would like to purchase a dynamic microphone to record my male singing voice through an audio interface, probably the Motu M4, in a room of small-medium size. I may also employ it for live performances in the future.

Which type should I choose between cardioid and supercardioid? I am leaning towards the cardioid type, due to possible sound reflections from a wall, but some of you may have advice that can be helpful for the decision.

At the moment, I am considering one microphone between the Sennheiser E835 and E845, given the doubt on the most appropriate type. Are these good microphones, especially when paired with an interface such as the Motu M4?

Thanks!
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,524
Likes
37,057
I have used both. I thought the e845 was better. I prefer them to the ubiquitous Shure Sm57 and Sm58.
 
OP
C

Cadence

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2021
Messages
29
Likes
9
I have used both. I thought the e845 was better. I prefer them to the ubiquitous Shure Sm57 and Sm58.
Thanks and good to know! Do you think the E845, as it is supercardioid, would give me issues with picking up sound reflections from an opposite wall in the mentioned small-medium room?
 

kongwee

Major Contributor
Joined
Jan 22, 2022
Messages
1,024
Likes
276
Normally, condenser for recording, dynamic for live. I have not seen anyone around me using dynamic for recording if they can afford one.
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,524
Likes
37,057
Thanks and good to know! Do you think the E845, as it is supercardioid, would give me issues with picking up sound reflections from an opposite wall in the mentioned small-medium room?
I was using it in a medium sized room, and it was not a problem. If buying local, ask if you can demo both at home.
 
OP
C

Cadence

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2021
Messages
29
Likes
9
Normally, condenser for recording, dynamic for live. I have not seen anyone around me using dynamic for recording if they can afford one.
I understand, but this one would be a single entry-level microphone to use in both cases; for the moment, I believe opting for a dynamic microphone may be the best idea, with future upgrades aimed at having a second condenser microphone.
 

DChenery

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 6, 2020
Messages
205
Likes
453
Location
Nanoose Bay
Best all rounder (IMHO) is the Shure SM7B. Larger and heavier than the Senn's and almost 4 x the cost, but has great frequency response and excellent off-axis and internal noise rejection. It is also very robust and can take major abuse.

If budget constrained (and who isn't these days!!) the Shure SM-58 LC Dynamic is very well built, but it can be a little bright for male vocals. The mic has great noise suppression (even in a live venue) due to the roll off of the lows.
 
OP
C

Cadence

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2021
Messages
29
Likes
9
Best all rounder (IMHO) is the Shure SM7B. Larger and heavier than the Senn's and almost 4 x the cost, but has great frequency response and excellent off-axis and internal noise rejection. It is also very robust and can take major abuse.

If budget constrained (and who isn't these days!!) the Shure SM-58 LC Dynamic is very well built, but it can be a little bright for male vocals. The mic has great noise suppression (even in a live venue) due to the roll off of the lows.
I see these are cardioid microphones. Do you believe that, for my scopes, they are better than supercardioid ones (e.g. Sennheiser E845)?
 

Blumlein 88

Grand Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Feb 23, 2016
Messages
20,524
Likes
37,057
Best all rounder (IMHO) is the Shure SM7B. Larger and heavier than the Senn's and almost 4 x the cost, but has great frequency response and excellent off-axis and internal noise rejection. It is also very robust and can take major abuse.

If budget constrained (and who isn't these days!!) the Shure SM-58 LC Dynamic is very well built, but it can be a little bright for male vocals. The mic has great noise suppression (even in a live venue) due to the roll off of the lows.
Budget entry level as the OP described isn't where the SM7B fits. It takes lots of gain and may or may not work with the M4. If not then you need a step up device like a Fethead or similar.
 

oversorrow

Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2021
Messages
28
Likes
27
Location
Lanzhou, China
Why not consider E935/E945? The newer version of Sennheiser's evolution series, the same price as the last generation.
Supercardioid microphones cause more proximity effects than cardioid.
Let me teach you some polar pattern knowledge:
mnm_300x300_Polar_Pattern_Supercardioid.jpg
mnm_300x300_Polar_Pattern_Cardioid.jpg

The cardioid has a wide acceptance angle of about 180° (the mic's sensitivity only drops by 6 dB 90° on either side of the on-axis line), the supercardioid has a tighter angle of about 150° (75° to either side of the on-axis line), which means if you hold a mic to sing, the cardioid will be easier to capture the sound than the supercardioid.
The null point of the cardioid is 180°, but the supercardioid is 127°, and 233°, which means if you sing on a live stage you have to put the speakers at a specific angle to avoid feedback issues.

Supercardioid/hypercardioid mics are suitable for live performance because they are designed to tackle problems under that situation.
Studio recording always has a well-established room for you to record, so they normally won't concern polar pattern stuff, they care about SOUND QUALITY.
So, supercardioid for live application, cardioid for studio recording, if you want to do both, take supercardioid as a safe bet.
 
OP
C

Cadence

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2021
Messages
29
Likes
9
Why not consider E935/E945? The newer version of Sennheiser's evolution series, the same price as the last generation.
Supercardioid microphones cause more proximity effects than cardioid.
Let me teach you some polar pattern knowledge:
View attachment 190286View attachment 190287
The cardioid has a wide acceptance angle of about 180° (the mic's sensitivity only drops by 6 dB 90° on either side of the on-axis line), the supercardioid has a tighter angle of about 150° (75° to either side of the on-axis line), which means if you hold a mic to sing, the cardioid will be easier to capture the sound than the supercardioid.
The null point of the cardioid is 180°, but the supercardioid is 127°, and 233°, which means if you sing on a live stage you have to put the speakers at a specific angle to avoid feedback issues.

Supercardioid/hypercardioid mics are suitable for live performance because they are designed to tackle problems under that situation.
Studio recording always has a well-established room for you to record, so they normally won't concern polar pattern stuff, they care about SOUND QUALITY.
So, supercardioid for live application, cardioid for studio recording, if you want to do both, take supercardioid as a safe bet.
Thanks for the information! The current objective is to perform some home recording tasks with voice and guitar, so affordable but decent entry-level equipment should be fine for the moment. I did not consider those two models because they do not cost the same as the E8xx ones; for example, 100 € for the E845 and 185 € for the E945 on Thomann. Where did you see similar prices?

In addition, my current concern mostly regarded what I mentioned earlier: sound reflections from walls in a (not well-established) room of small-medium size at home. Therefore, I wondered if a supercardioid microphone could be a bit worse than a cardioid one in this context, given it captures sounds from the back.

Moreover, I read that supercardioid microphones may not be suitable for live performances if a singer moves around too much, so it may be that cardioid ones could work better in a few situations.

What do you think? By the way, given the previous comments, I tilted towards a supercardioid one (i.e. E845, because of the affordable price), which matches your final advice. Thanks again!
 

goat76

Major Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2021
Messages
1,270
Likes
1,385
Maybe you should think about two different microphones, one for recording and another one for live performances. Buy the one you consider most important for now, and save up for the other one when you need it.

A sensitive contenser microphone will probably work best for the recording of acoustic guitar and vocals, and an dynamic microphone for live performances.
 

oversorrow

Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2021
Messages
28
Likes
27
Location
Lanzhou, China
Thanks for the information! The current objective is to perform some home recording tasks with voice and guitar, so affordable but decent entry-level equipment should be fine for the moment. I did not consider those two models because they do not cost the same as the E8xx ones; for example, 100 € for the E845 and 185 € for the E945 on Thomann. Where did you see similar prices?

In addition, my current concern mostly regarded what I mentioned earlier: sound reflections from walls in a (not well-established) room of small-medium size at home. Therefore, I wondered if a supercardioid microphone could be a bit worse than a cardioid one in this context, given it captures sounds from the back.

Moreover, I read that supercardioid microphones may not be suitable for live performances if a singer moves around too much, so it may be that cardioid ones could work better in a few situations.

What do you think? By the way, given the previous comments, I tilted towards a supercardioid one (i.e. E845, because of the affordable price), which matches your final advice. Thanks again!
Oh sorry I forget, the E935 was only 99$ on sales day, I bought one during black friday and thought it's the regular price.
Actually, your concern about ambient reflections is unnecessary, because no matter what polar pattern you choose, when you sing you have to put the mic very close to your mouth to avoid ambient noise, so under this circumstance, the two polar patterns won't show too much difference at rejecting ambient reflections.
Maybe consider a SE V7 for the same price? Sounds more clear with extended frequency response. Your call.;)
 
OP
C

Cadence

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2021
Messages
29
Likes
9
Oh sorry I forget, the E935 was only 99$ on sales day, I bought one during black friday and thought it's the regular price.
Actually, your concern about ambient reflections is unnecessary, because no matter what polar pattern you choose, when you sing you have to put the mic very close to your mouth to avoid ambient noise, so under this circumstance, the two polar patterns won't show too much difference at rejecting ambient reflections.
Maybe consider a SE V7 for the same price? Sounds more clear with extended frequency response. Your call.;)
I see, no problem!

The main doubt regarded the title of the thread: cardioid vs. supercardioid. Given all the helpful details, I believe choosing a dynamic supercardioid microphone as the single main one is a good choice for the moment.

I listened to some comparisons that included the E945 and E845. I have to say that the E945 really shined among all and gave me a positive impression. To be honest, I should still have a Shure Beta 58A hidden somewhere, but I have never contacted Shure to check if it's an original microphone; I may contact them to know, use it for the moment and then upgrade to an E945 or superior model, while keeping the Beta 58A as a second microphone, if it's not a fake model.
 

hardisj

Major Contributor
Reviewer
Joined
Jul 18, 2019
Messages
2,907
Likes
13,908
Location
North Alabama
I tell you what... I've got an e835 that I'm not using. It's in good shape. I wound up getting a hypercardioid setup for my videos and haven't used the Senn in a while. Was hanging on to it "just in case".

Anyway, if you cover shipping costs I'm willing to send it to you and if you like it, I'll sell it to you for $50. Meaning, you pay $50+shipping. If not, send it back (again, you cover shipping).

If that sounds good to you, shoot me a PM.
 

scrubb

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 7, 2020
Messages
101
Likes
264
Location
Chicago, IL
One thing to consider with cardioid mics is so called Proximity Effect where low end is emphasized as the source (voice) moves closer to the mic. Supercardioid mics have more proximity effect than standard cardioids. Of course this can be compensated for with EQ, but if the subject is moving in and out from the mic it becomes more problematic. Also, a supercardioid will have more noticeable roll off if the subject moves on and off axis while singing. From a recording perspective I would use a cardioid with as even a polar pattern across the fequency spectrum as possible and treat the room for reflections. For live sound I would typically use a supercardioid in order to help control feedback through the PA. The enhanced proximity effect can also provide a nice warmth in live sound. On the other hand I have used regular cardioids for live sound without many problems. In live sound a lot of it depends upon whether the singer has a good sense of how to use, and interact with the microphone, especially if it's hand held.
 
OP
C

Cadence

Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2021
Messages
29
Likes
9
I tell you what... I've got an e835 that I'm not using. It's in good shape. I wound up getting a hypercardioid setup for my videos and haven't used the Senn in a while. Was hanging on to it "just in case".

Anyway, if you cover shipping costs I'm willing to send it to you and if you like it, I'll sell it to you for $50. Meaning, you pay $50+shipping. If not, send it back (again, you cover shipping).

If that sounds good to you, shoot me a PM.
This sounds good, but is unfeasible because I live in Europe! Thanks anyway!

One thing to consider with cardioid mics is so called Proximity Effect where low end is emphasized as the source (voice) moves closer to the mic. Supercardioid mics have more proximity effect than standard cardioids. Of course this can be compensated for with EQ, but if the subject is moving in and out from the mic it becomes more problematic. Also, a supercardioid will have more noticeable roll off if the subject moves on and off axis while singing. From a recording perspective I would use a cardioid with as even a polar pattern across the fequency spectrum as possible and treat the room for reflections. For live sound I would typically use a supercardioid in order to help control feedback through the PA. The enhanced proximity effect can also provide a nice warmth in live sound. On the other hand I have used regular cardioids for live sound without many problems. In live sound a lot of it depends upon whether the singer has a good sense of how to use, and interact with the microphone, especially if it's hand held.
Understood, I will take these details into account when making the choice in the future.
 
Top Bottom