Michi Prestige Q430 CD Player, and its $4,400 Fatal Flaw & Rotel's Bizarre Support

[shuppatsu]

This thread is like catnip for pedants. If people wanted to complain about the ASR type of person all they’d need to do is link here.

I’m here too, ah well, it’s good to know things about myself.

I’m generally with you, @Tomassio, but I think you overstate the case somewhat. A CD player with no play or eject button would be almost unimaginable. I lived through the entirety of the CD era and probably used the seek buttons less than 50 times in my life. I’m pretty sure I’ve used crappy boom boxes with no seek before, though maybe if I’d bothered to hold down the track skip buttons they would have worked.

Apropos of nothing, but amusing for an old pedant like me: the “legally binding” manual forbids you to place the CD player on any “cart, stand, tripod, bracket, or table,” except those “specified by the manufacturer, or sold with the apparatus.” (p. 3) So best to place it on the floor just to be safe. I *think* a (dry cleaned) rug is ok.

 

[Chrispy]

This thread is like catnip for pedants. If people wanted to complain about the ASR type of person all they’d need to do is link here.

I’m here too, ah well, it’s good to know things about myself.

I’m generally with you, @Tomassio, but I think you overstate the case somewhat. A CD player with no play or eject button would be almost unimaginable. I lived through the entirety of the CD era and probably used the seek buttons less than 50 times in my life. I’m pretty sure I’ve used crappy boom boxes with no seek before, though maybe if I’d bothered to hold down the track skip buttons they would have worked.

Apropos of nothing, but amusing for an old pedant like me: the “legally binding” manual forbids you to place the CD player on any “cart, stand, tripod, bracket, or table,” except those “specified by the manufacturer, or sold with the apparatus.” (p. 3) So best to place it on the floor just to be safe. I *think* a (dry cleaned) rug is ok.

"ASR" type of person vs what, the oddball subjectivist?

 

[pablolie]

Few people read the owners manual before making a purchase. And, if not having that function (which, as far as I know, all other CD players have as a standard function, somehow makes the manufacturer think that makes it a "better" CD player, they should have pointed it out that they think that it is better to not have this function (and what they think the benefit of not having it is).
It is beautiful! But not competent, feature wise (as to performance wise, we don't know). And, it doesn't matter: because of the incompetency of it's functionality.
(I am one that just likes to play my CD's on a CD player. I do want to back them up to a NAS but that is for incase something happens to the CD. Then, I would make a new CD from what I backed up. (yes, I can record and make a CD, in either 16 bit or 20 bit).

You have never seemed to me to be the type to plunge down 5k with zero research, buddy.

 

[shuppatsu]

"ASR" type of person vs what, the oddball subjectivist?

If you check out other forums or Reddit subs you’ll see plenty of people who complain about the ASR community. Yes, most of them are subjectivists. Are they oddballs? I dunno. No more than people over here. Though they tend to be more wrong IMO.

 

[pablolie]

If you check out other forums or Reddit subs you’ll see plenty of people who complain about the ASR community. Yes, most of them are subjectivists. Are they oddballs? I dunno. No more than people over here. Though they tend to be more wrong IMO.

In no way ever was this a thread about subjectivism vs objectivism.
I was about expectations around features in highish end audio.

 

[Chrispy]

If you check out other forums or Reddit subs you’ll see plenty of people who complain about the ASR community. Yes, most of them are subjectivists. Are they oddballs? I dunno. No more than people over here. Though they tend to be more wrong IMO.

Many other groups/fora are full of shit, including reddit Just doesn't mean much.

 

[Hiten]

https://shdigimedia.com/products/ro...p4b5XknPr1cP-EVVtB0zNBGPfQqeigKynGHrCo5CBhGXg

A dealer in india ad is showing same player with ff/re remote. Does it means it comes with different remotes ?

 

[Chrispy]

https://shdigimedia.com/products/ro...p4b5XknPr1cP-EVVtB0zNBGPfQqeigKynGHrCo5CBhGXg

A dealer in india ad is showing same player with ff/re remote. Does it means it comes with different remotes ?

The remote just indicates track ff/rw, not within track....

 

[EJ3]

You have never seemed to me to be the type to plunge down 5k with zero research, buddy.

You are correct.
Nor would I spend that much on a CD player, even if I thought it was better than pre-sliced bread (another thing that I think is over-rated).
And with the amount of research that I do, should I have been interested in the CD player model that the OP bought, I would have discovered the lack of that feature before buying it. But, I think that I do research things quite a bit more than most folks do (leading some people to call me a "late adopter" of gear).

But, when you think about it: for many folks, the second most expensive thing that they will ever buy (a home usually being the first), is a car. Few read the owners manual after they buy one, much less before buying one.
The basic functions of forward, reverse, turning, stopping and being able to vary the speed at which those things are done is pretty much an accepted minimum functionality for a car.
And one should not have to read the manual to discover that one of those functions was intentionally left out of the design in order to be minimalist (or for any other reason). It is a design feature that became accepted as that is the bare minimum of what is required for a car. On the other hand, very few motorcycles have a reverse. And that is accepted as a feature that motorcycles don't have. Should a car not have one of the functions that I mentioned, or a motorcycle be equipped with a reverser (some are): it should not be required to read the owners manual to discover this.
Especially when the manufacturer is questioned about the lack of a certain feature's availability, they come back with: well, we think that it is a benefit for you not to have that.

On the tangent of needing a manual to find out about the operating features of something:
This car (The Beatnik Bandit" by Ed Roth) was able to do all the driving functions of a car through the use of a single YOKE handle, using hydraulics, in 1964.
No gas pedal, no brake pedal and no steering wheel, H'mmm?

Gallery: Beatnik Bandit Joins National Historic Vehicle Register​

Ed Roth’s bubble-top show car adds to its pedigree.
By Wesley Wren Published: Aug 28, 2024 2:40 PM EDT

I'll bet that instructions from someone in person and a demonstration of how it worked was needed. I suspect that (at least at that time), a manual would have been inadequate.

The AM/FM radio antenna

 

[EJ3]

https://shdigimedia.com/products/ro...p4b5XknPr1cP-EVVtB0zNBGPfQqeigKynGHrCo5CBhGXg

A dealer in india ad is showing same player with ff/re remote. Does it means it comes with different remotes ?

Yes, it does.
That is why the first response to the OP when he contacted Rotel/Michi global support was as follows: They suggested I purchase a different Rotel remote (the RR-D99) out of my own pocket.
Which, in my opinion, in the interest of making the customer happ(ier) (and because apparently no one let him know about it being a feature only available trough using a certain remote of theirs), they should have just provided him with the remote needed to do that.
Somehow, I suspect that the profit margin involved in this unit certainly could have made that worthwhile.

 

[Chrispy]

Yes, it does.
That is why the first response to the OP when he contacted Rotel/Michi global support was as follows: They suggested I purchase a different Rotel remote (the RR-D99) out of my own pocket.
Which, in my opinion, in the interest of making the customer happ(ier) (and because apparently no one let him know about it being a feature only available trough using a certain remote of theirs), they should have just provided him with the remote needed to do that.
Somehow, I suspect that the profit margin involved in this unit certainly could have made that worthwhile.

Even with this, just points to a poor value of a $4k player as there isn't much else to go on. So many ways to go with a better player of digital files....

 

[shuppatsu]

In no way ever was this a thread about subjectivism vs objectivism.
I was about expectations around features in highish end audio.

I never said it was. I was answering a direct question.

 

[Tomassio]

Good morning (afternoon in Spain). Since I feel this thread has pretty much run its course, I'm going to bow out now, but not before thanking everyone for your inputs, answers, opinions, feedbacks, critics, and, in general, the time you've taken to reply, both to me and to each other.

Best regards to everyone.

 

[pablolie]

... complain about the ASR type of person...

No such thing exists.

 

[Hayabusa]

Well, I don't agree with you, but I thank you for your opinion. The quick search/rewind is a basic feature in any CD player

I have never even worried about not having this function.. You bought a player as specified.. You better had done more research before you buy, if this function is so important to you.

 

[Hayabusa]

The thinking was that it could trigger error interpolation, causing a loss of true bit accuracy, introduce PLL jitter while the mechanism re-synchronized potentially making the audio measurably worse

I know of no cd player that does not clock out its samples out of a fifo buffer with a FIXED clock.
There is a complete disconnect between the mechanisms tracking and the DAC clock.

 

[Human Bass]

I have never even worried about not having this function.. You bought a player as specified.. You better had done more research before you buy, if this function is so important to you.

To be fair it is quite understandable being caught by surprise about a very expensive product not having a basic function.

 

[Mort]

Given that (IMO):
1. This thread has run its course (maybe 2 pages ago)
2. This issue is essentially unresolvable

I’m still setting the over/under on this thread at 9 pages.

I'll take the over. This group lives to argue.

 

[Dialectic]

Hi everyone,

Newbie here on ASR, writting and greeting you from Spain. I made my "formal" presentation here yesterday. Following up on my introduction, I wanted to share a highly frustrating experience I’ve just had with my brand new CD player (I bought it barelly 3 weeks ago): the flagship Rotel / Michi Prestige Q430 (retail price: €3,990 / ~$4,400). I am posting this as a warning to anyone considering this unit for their system.

First of all, a few pictures of my setup:

View attachment 554548

View attachment 554549

View attachment 554550

Let me start by saying that, sonically, the Q430 is a spectacular machine. It has a dead-silent background, incredible channel separation, and massive dynamics. It combines sturdy construction and beautiful aesthetics (really nice good-looking aspect. I swear I love it). However, all that brilliant engineering is ruined by a completely incomprehensible design omission, and an equally disappointing customer service response.

A few days after setting it up, I was listening to a 20-minute Mahler symphony movement. I got interrupted and needed to rewind a few minutes within the track. I pressed and held the "previous track" button on the remote... and it just skipped to the beginning of the song. I tried doing it from the front panel buttons. Same result. I tried it on several tracks from other CDs, but eventually, I realized the unthinkable: the Michi Q430 does not have a fast-forward or rewind (scan/seek) function within a track. You also can't mark a specific point inside a track in any way.

If you are listening to a long classical piece, an extended jazz improvisation, or Mike Oldfield's Ommadawn Parts I & II (just to name a few examples), and you want to find or re-listen to a specific passage, you can't. If you get interrupted halfway through a 30-minute track, you are forced to restart from zero because the system turns off after a couple of minutes. (I can understand this auto-standby as a security asset for the laser reader, but I insist, the Michi forces you to restart the track entirely after that pause).

I contacted Rotel/Michi global support, assuming this had to be a software bug that could be fixed via firmware, but their initial response was astounding: They claimed the lack of a scan/seek function was not a bug, but a conscious "design choice" due to the "minimalist philosophy" of the Q430's remote control. Their official solution for a €4,000 flagship device? They suggested I purchase a different Rotel remote (the RR-D99) out of my own pocket. Surreal Customer SupportResponse, in my opinion.

I replied with a new email explaining that true minimalism doesn't require extra buttons; it requires assigning dual functions to existing buttons (short press to skip, long press to scan), which has been the industry standard for decades. Furthermore, a minimalist remote doesn't explain why the front panel buttons lack this basic function as well.
I further told them that omitting the fast-seek functionality on a premium CD player is as absurd as forgetting to implement the "Play" or "Pause" buttons. It is a fundamental requirement of the CD format, not an optional luxury. Even a cheap $100 CD player allows you to fast-forward or rewind inside a track. I also pointed out that hiding this severe limitation from their marketing specs borders on misleading advertising. The Michi manual doesn't mention anything about this issue either.

The Final Verdict from Rotel? Following my firm complaint, their internal teams (maybe the Engineering Department) reviewed the case. Their final email was polite but unapologetic. They confirmed that the unit is operating "as currently designed." They stated they have passed my feedback to engineering but explicitly confirmed that, despite acknowledging the importance of this functionality, they have no plans for any firmware update, change, or modification to fix this issue.

Finally, they gave me the ultimate "take it or leave it" corporate response: they told me that if this operation is essential to my listening requirements, I should just pack it up and return it to my dealer.

So, that is exactly what I am going to do as soon as the holiday break ends on September 1st. The unit is boxed up and going back. It is a real shame because the Q430 sounds beautiful in my Technics / Sonus Faber setup. I really loved this CD player from the very moment I started to seek information about it (I never could have imagined that I was going to find this kind of problem with an expensive—and top brand—Japanese device). But as a matter of principle, I refuse to reward a company that releases a crippled flagship product, blames it on "minimalist design," and expects the user to just accept it. Rotel has permanently lost a customer.

I'll be taking my money to brands that still respect basic functionality and their customers. (I'm currently researching the Accuphase DP-450 and the new Luxman D-03R, but, truth be told, I'm still processing all this nonsense).

In short: if you are considering this Q430, know that it is a true marvel in every way... right up until you need to fast-forward a bit within a track, or re-listen to those five seconds you love so much. At that moment, you'll realize you own the equivalent of an ultra-high-end luxury car, but one where the engineers decided to remove the reverse gear—and didn't let you find out until you had already paid for it and parked it in your own garage.

Apologizing for the length of the text, I'd love to hear your thoughts about this issue.

Cheers!

If you had not posted the irrelevant system photo and subjective impressions (e.g., "massive dynamics"), I would be sympathetic to your plight.

 

[DavidEdwinAston]

Have just peered at the remote for my Oppo udp-203, in hopes of adding something useful to the thread. However, the control panels at Cerne will be less button infested than this remote. So, without actually putting a disk in, and on, I'd better not claim it can do within track skip.