Michael Fremer Leaving Stereophile?

[Prep74]

It's sad that this hobby resorts to public name calling. Having degrees and being a college professor doesn't triumph a real job outside of academia. Most people have in theories fail in practice.

Peter believes that digital gives higher resolution, which it probably does or in theory should do. Mikey says it adds distortion and sound worse than analog/vinyl. Maybe it does add distortion as overtones into audible spectrum or it adds more detail and that detail could be noise or something audible that he and some producers don't like it. Or the added detail doesn't mask something that the analog/vinyl process masks/hides/removes. Who knows?

Maybe it's not even measurable or in 1/10th of dB and inaudible to most people. What if they are both wrong? Or both right?

You're not seriously suggesting their objective views have equivalence? That's a bit like giving equal credibility to someone who has theorised about UFOs for the past 30 years with a physicist.

Subjectively, Fremer, yourself or anyone can have a preference for less fidelity in sound recording/playback (i.e. analogue, particularly vinyl records). The problem with Fremerites of this world is that they cannot accept it is their own personal preference and instead resort to outright nonsense (or psuedoscience at best) to make objective claims.

There is no doubt that digital transparency is less forgiving of any flaws in the production processes compared to analogue media, but when done right there also is no doubt of the advantages of a the higher fidelity format. Just ask for a subjective opinion from enthusiasts of classical and orchestral music the most demanding genre for music realism.

Btw Fremer is not a producer, far from it - just a dude with strange thinking.

 

[Mart68]

It's sad that this hobby resorts to public name calling. Having degrees and being a college professor doesn't triumph a real job outside of academia. Most people have in theories fail in practice.

Peter believes that digital gives higher resolution, which it probably does or in theory should do. Mikey says it adds distortion and sound worse than analog/vinyl. Maybe it does add distortion as overtones into audible spectrum or it adds more detail and that detail could be noise or something audible that he and some producers don't like it. Or the added detail doesn't mask something that the analog/vinyl process masks/hides/removes. Who knows?

That would be wonderful if it were true wouldn't it? A big mystery and with it all still to play for. But we do know, and we know to a very high degree of certainty.

 

[FrantzM]

It's sad that this hobby resorts to public name calling. Having degrees and being a college professor doesn't triumph a real job outside of academia. Most people have in theories fail in practice.

Peter believes that digital gives higher resolution, which it probably does or in theory should do. Mikey says it adds distortion and sound worse than analog/vinyl. Maybe it does add distortion as overtones into audible spectrum or it adds more detail and that detail could be noise or something audible that he and some producers don't like it. Or the added detail doesn't mask something that the analog/vinyl process masks/hides/removes. Who knows?

Maybe it's not even measurable or in 1/10th of dB and inaudible to most people. What if they are both wrong? Or both right?

It is not a matter of belief, these are facts: Digital provides higher resolution. Your participation in this forum is proof of the prowess of digital. Yes, putting aside the audio part: Typing what you did and it, being conveyed to the forum to us, is a testimony to the prowess and, yes, resolution of digital. You could not have done it with analog technology.
Thing is Mikey himself, at one point converted to digital, what came from an expensive turntable he had or, he "liked it so much, he kept the review sample" and admitted that the could barely (or not) hear any difference between the turntable and the digital recording (I am citing from memory, analog memory so there could be some errors ). This was to me an interesting and very sincere admission.. I believe he may have moved from this position/declaration/admission... His ears , as he aged, became more resolving and ...

Don't succumb to this FUD*. The reality as of today is that a $7.95 Apple dongle lightning to headphones adapter, is more resolving than any TT ever made ...

Happy holidays!
Peace.

 

[teched58]

At the end of the day, Michael Fremer is an entertainer and a personality (and also, if you add his rants and scatological rejoinders to criticism into the equation, a bit of a performance artist). He is not an engineer or a scientist and it's a mistake to expect him to act or write like one.

If Mikey took reality into account -- i.e,, the fact that digital is higher resolution and superior to vinyl -- he would have nothing to talk about. Ergo, he wouldn't be able to make the decent living he's made out of being the turntable trade press capo di tutti capi these past 30 years. (It's fun to travel to trade shows and have vendors treat you like an A lister. Also, lots of free food and staying in nice hotels. Hard to give it up once you're on that gravy train.)

 

[piotrkundu]

Btw, this new AARO sounds like X-files - maybe audiophilia should be their first case. I'm not going vinyl anytime soon, but distortion could be a good thing - guitar players seem buy a whole lot of gear to get more distortion. To much detail could be a bad thing if the details bring noise or give you "listening fatigue". In the end they seem to throw the same argument around for different opinions and none of the seem to consider that either one could be wrong - or that actually they agree, they just see different outcomes. One thing academia thought me that it has very strong opinion about science and very little doubt around it - and the doubt is what brings new science, not the certainty.

 

[piotrkundu]

... make the decent living he's made out of being the turntable trade press ...

Don't trust the trade press is what I'm hearing - there is definitely a conflict of selling ads and writing reviews - but somehow this guy seems to hear stuff others don't and then they go at each other. I would say it's a modest home with lot of expensive gear and some serious hoarding tendencies. If anything audiophilia makes you poor(er).

 

[Prep74]

Btw, this new AARO sounds like X-files - maybe audiophilia should be their first case. I'm not going vinyl anytime soon, but distortion could be a good thing - guitar players seem buy a whole lot of gear to get more distortion. To much detail could be a bad thing if the details bring noise or give you "listening fatigue". In the end they seem to throw the same argument around for different opinions and none of the seem to consider that either one could be wrong - or that actually they agree, they just see different outcomes. One thing academia thought me that it has very strong opinion about science and very little doubt around it - and the doubt is what brings new science, not the certainty.

You're confusing music production with reproduction. Music production is the artistic side of things to create sounds, whether they be distorted guitars, bashing trash bin lids, electronic generated sounds and so on. Anything goes.

Reproduction is about capturing and playing back those sounds. So while an artist may record the sound of his distorted electric guitar, do you think listeners should listen to it while at the same time connecting and depressing a fuzz pedal?

For high fidelity the playback chain should just reproduce the artistic sounds as accurately as possible without adding or subtracting anything to it and there is no doubt which media does it better. That doesn't mean subjective preferences do not matter, for example, I'm partial towards a bit of mid bass boost on many tracks, but there are better ways of achieving this on playback, such as tone controls or equalisation rather than choosing a lower fidelity format.

Trying to make facts as some sort of a contested opinion is a core response of deniers. You might think 1+1=2 is an opinion but it doesn't change the objective fact. And you certainly won't convince others that it is not a fact in a science based forum.

 

[DonH56]

1+1=3 for very large values of 1. (Gotta' love limit theory.)

 

[bkatbamna]

One of the Pink Panther movioes had a scene with, “In with the bad and out with the good.” For the Buddhist breathing.

The funniest part is the old lady banging him with a purse.

 

[Holmz]

The funniest part is the old lady banging him with a purse.

I think that was the same movie where “<his> dog does not bite”?

 

[bkatbamna]

If voodoo and magic is your business you are not going to do a lot of "investigating" into it.

It's like the Las Vegas authorities in the '70s who didn't want to look too closely at who were actually running the casinos that were bringing billions of dollars to their city.

 

[bkatbamna]

I think that was the same movie where “<his> dog does not bite”?

Not to mention interrogating the staff at the English manor.

 

[Holmz]

Elements of the Strangelove character with the hand in the knight’s glove.

 

[anmpr1]

At the end of the day, Michael Fremer is an entertainer... a bit of a performance artist.

From a distance, it's pretty easy to 'psychoanalyze' transparent people. Which makes Fremer an attractive target. Is he an entertainer? I guess he's the equivalent of a carnival barker. Is carnival barking entertaining?

Performance artist? No... I think Fremer is no an act. He's sincere, which means he's simply a low-level true believer with an occasionally bad personality. If it was an act, he would have showed his hand by now. No one could keep it up as long as he has. The guy is hard-core. I give him that.

Even an authentic and high-level performance actor, such as Andy Kaufman, who was truly funny in an over the top bizarre way, wouldn't be able to keep Fremer's pace. Which leads me to think that Mikey might want to branch out from his audio gig. I think that in his persona of Mr. Analog he could do pretty well as a successor to Kaufman's World Intergender Wrestling Champion. It would certainly be worth watching, especially if he could confront Jerry Lawler on Letterman.

But alas, that's never happening, so I'm afraid nothing of humor will ever come from Fremer. We can still laugh at him, but never laugh with him.

 

[BlackTalon]

Agreed. He's essentially become a caricature. All of his audio-related features are exaggerated to the point where they are appear funny.

At one point I respected his work in helping to reestablish the world of turntables, and how he built a business out of it (Analog Corner, etc.). But as time marched on, and the only acceptable 'tables to him cost $150k+, and the rest of the system needed to total at least $400k more, I fled like I was within viewing distance of a nuclear bomb detonation.

My inclination is to sit him over in the corner with a drool napkin tucked into his shirt, and ask him not to disturb the other asylum members. Of course it's okay if Paul M sits there next to him.

It would be interesting to see the results of hearing tests on both of them...

 

[anmpr1]

It would be interesting to see the results of hearing tests on both of them...

All subjective oriented influencers should submit their audiograms. On the other hand, if all one is doing is showing charts (the objective stuff) then it's not really necessary. But readers don't and won't demand it. I mean, if you needed proof of these bizarre claims, you would not be reading Stereophile in the first place; and if you don't want proof, then no amount of alternate argument is going to make you change your outlook.

But here's the thing: almost all the copy these folks submit, and that pass as reviews, simply express how the gear makes them 'feel'. They are talking about their emotions, and not so much the item under 'review'.

Consider this blurb (from the KLH thread):

The KLH Model Three possesses the spirit of youth—vitality, confidence, hope for the future. It has a young heart, like me.

Try and parse the influencer's meaning. If you attempt it, and after you discount the writer's lack of creativity and solipsistic laziness, you'll find that his words essentially mean: This loudspeaker makes me feel young again, and gives me a positive outlook in life.

Now, there is nothing wrong with that statement as an utterance of one's emotional response to an object (although one could question the weirdness of this sort of psychological reification--i.e. attributing one's feelings to an external object). But however it is, the statement has nothing whatsoever to do with the loudspeaker itself, i.e. doing what loudspeakers do. For that you have to go to Atkinson and his charts.

So here's the bottom line. If someone wants to read about some influencer's emotions, then these articles are likely what they are looking for. Unfortunately, as psychological commentary, most of the writers are banal.

Memo to Stereophile: if you must publish psychological 'reaction' articles, locate writers with interesting psychological insights. What you need is a Dostoevsky, Edgar Poe, or (since a lot of the gear they feature is pretty weird) a Howard Lovecraft to write for you. Really, if the bottom line is feeling bordering on bizarre psycho-horror, who wouldn't want Rodion Raskolnikov, or Nyarlathotep explaining the emotional angle of a new DAC or amp?

 

[raif71]

 

[ahofer]

Archimago having some fun at Fremer’s ”fact-free bubble”:

MUSINGS: On Michael Fremer's "How Best to Hear Patricia Barber's 'Clique!'" - selective hearing and more MQA nonsense. [Extended Edition!]

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.

archimago.blogspot.com

 

[OldHvyMec]

Don't succumb to this FUD*. The reality as of today is that a $7.95 Apple dongle lightning to headphones adapter, is more resolving than any TT ever made ...

Blatant statement like this really hurt my feeling. LOL The ignorance alone makes my head hurt. Not to mention the BS statement made.
Some people defy reasoning from what that have read and take for gospel vs actually listen to and or have a system worth crowing
about.

I have listen to several analog systems, based around Turntables, Reel To Reel, CDs (analog signal out), and every digital system I could find.

They can all sound amazing or they can drive a sane person out of a room.

The fact is none of the digital systems I've listened to with solid state equipment is anywhere close to the same sound. Artifacts that are on
analog recording and played back by analog gear sounds different. The fact that a crew blasted on coke and smoke did a digital remake
doesn't mean the original guys that mixed had the same cocktail. You can say what you like, DIGITAL has a flavor and many older listeners
remember. The fact is the LOVE is gone.

Comparing your dongle to my turntable is like comparing a 64 VW to a Rolls-Royce in every single way. I'm not going to get into
direct head playback Reel to Reel. That would be like comparing a bicycle to the Aurora project.

You really shouldn't make blatant comments. It removes all doubts for a true lover of music and those that have actually experienced them.
When you have the systems side by side TODAY, make a statement like that. It's simply foolish arrogance, a lack of actually hearing a system
or pure jealousy. Heck it could be all three. I will emphasize this. Take the cotton out of your ears and put it in the mouth and LISTEN.

Measurement have a place, they have a purpose. Snide comments about preference does not. You think you're at Gene's place or AG?
I fired both of them for ignorance, never mind the arrogance, and user bashing. I think, substance abuse is the culprit at least that is
treatable. At AG the turnover is so great they start at square one about once a year.

This is the BEST site bar none. I was surprised at the collected demeanor of the SySop and the help he has. Wonderful.
Imaging a site you have to scroll a half a page to get by adds or can't post because you hit a Kardashian add.

Where do I send my support and who gets added to my trust? It's A Mcintosh trust, haters are not included. LOL

I have never cared to put one product down and then crow about another, BUT I can crawl in the pig pen with the best and sling under-breath
comments with the best worst of them. I try to chose a better way of expressing myself though. Manners count.

Did I mention cannibals are a dying bread, breed. No I'm not a vegetarian. I'm sure vegetarians taste good though.
Just thinkin' out loud. Don't bother; I'll report myself.

Regards, Maybe.

 

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