Michael Børresen explains himself?

[Pearljam5000]

What's the advantage in their philosophy of using multiple 4.5 inch drivers VS let's say for example 2X10 inch drivers ?
I mean most of their speakers are based around that

 

[kyuu]

What's the advantage in their philosophy of using multiple 4.5 inch drivers VS let's say for example 2X10 inch drivers ?
I mean most of their speakers are based around that

None really. The main advantage of using multiple smaller drivers rather than a single larger driver is having less of a size differential between the tweeter or mid-range so it's easier to match directivities between the drivers when crossing over. However, with your standard 1" tweeter the sweet spot is more-or-less a 5.25" woofer by my understanding. There's no need to go smaller than that unless you're just making a speaker that's too small to mount that size driver. Or for cost reasons.

I think it's pretty plain that the design choices have nothing to do with sound engineering trade-offs, but are simply done for aesthetics or to be deliberately different regardless of if it makes sense.

 

[Mnyb]

The rip off line is not at all blurry in this case .

IMHO it’s usually quite easy to see but hard to explain for me .

I would place Audiovector in that bracket with cryo treated xover components, but they have not always been like that .

I guess I can accept expensive luxury products if they are sound engineering as foundation for the product .

If it to much cargo cult engineering and astrology and homeopathy involved in the design it’s always a rip off to me ( and an abomination ).
The how and why is important to me . Other may judge to finished product only ( a broken clock is right two times a day so sometimes it can serendipitously work ) .

And honestly cables and speakers are easy targets . It’s hard to build non working speakers or non working cables .
If you compound the circle of confusion with clients without any real reference at all . Slapp expensive drivers in beautiful cabs add mystique and marketing hike the price and you have a sale .

 

[Pearljam5000]

The rip off line is not at all blurry in this case .

IMHO it’s usually quite easy to see but hard to explain for me .

I would place Audiovector in that bracket with cryo treated xover components, but they have not always been like that .

I guess I can accept expensive luxury products if they are sound engineering as foundation for the product .

If it to much cargo cult engineering and astrology and homeopathy involved in the design it’s always a rip off to me ( and an abomination ).
The how and why is important to me . Other may judge to finished product only ( a broken clock is right two times a day so sometimes it can serendipitously work ) .

And honestly cables and speakers are easy targets . It’s hard to build non working speakers or non working cables .
If you compound the circle of confusion with clients without any real reference at all . Slapp expensive drivers in beautiful cabs add mystique and marketing hike the price and you have a sale .

They feel not that expensive when compared to $500K speakers lol

 

[kemmler3D]

their strong brand presence seems to help maintain resale value.
Because of that, even if my choice turned out to be a mistake, the financial impact would likely be smaller.

I have been buying and selling audio gear secondhand for 20 years at this point... I think TCO is a sensible metric to use. You are right that the brands with a lot of reputation / recognition tend to hold value better. From what I have seen, Genelec holds their value as well as anything you can buy. If you are thinking about spending Borrensen money, just buy high-end Genelec and smile as you get 75% of your money back in 10 years... and also in the interim, as you enjoy dramatically better sound quality.

If you have 6 figures to spend on speakers, you can hear what is heard in some of the best studios in the world. Later on if you decide to sell the speakers, you can sell them to one of them.

 

[RexrothPigeon]

I would make a distinction between this item which is at least a speaker that makes sound which is acceptable to at least some people and various snake oil items that in the best case don't affect the sound and often degrade it.

You're not wrong about this distinction, but it's like saying some flavors of shit are better than others. Borreson is charging three star Michelin prices for a big steaming bowl of it.

 

[BeeKay]

Would the Blade Meta 1 be better than the $500K M6?

Yes, you would only have to be willing to do without pseudo-scientific marketing outpourings. If you can live with it? In addition, you will be under pressure at the same time what to do with the saved 450+k USD

 

[kawauso]

I have been buying and selling audio gear secondhand for 20 years at this point... I think TCO is a sensible metric to use. You are right that the brands with a lot of reputation / recognition tend to hold value better. From what I have seen, Genelec holds their value as well as anything you can buy. If you are thinking about spending Borrensen money, just buy high-end Genelec and smile as you get 75% of your money back in 10 years... and also in the interim, as you enjoy dramatically better sound quality.

If you have 6 figures to spend on speakers, you can hear what is heard in some of the best studios in the world. Later on if you decide to sell the speakers, you can sell them to one of them.

I don’t own any Wilson speakers, but even if I happened to buy one by mistake, it probably wouldn’t be a big loss, especially if it were second-hand. I personally prefer KEF and JBL. Maybe not as overwhelmingly as Genelec, but I feel both brands have strong identities. Still, every now and then I get the urge to try something from a smaller manufacturer, like Ascend Acoustics or AsciLab.

 

[FrantzM]

Hi
.
Imagine for a few minutes subjective audiophile with money, and having read a review of something like the Boressen's with all the usual paeans ... He (most likely. HE) brings it home and ... cannot fully understand why the Bose Wave radio in the same environment seems to sound sound better... What do you think this audiophile will do? And the esteemed Magazine told him it was the best, or at least one of the best!!! He will question his own system and, most likely change... something in his system, perhaps, the cables for "synergy" .. After such (expensive, but who's counting?) changes , results that, at first, were "night and day", are (in the back of his mind) not as good as the Bose Wave radio. .. He knows he has golden ears since, he is after all, a discerning audiophile. So he goes to the next steps, his current DAC may not be up to the task so ..."better" (, in HEA parlance , more expensive) DAC< .. Good but no cigar, so, next steps would be the amps.. or the preamp or ... the magical thing .. Room treatments!! Still after several months have passed, the Bose Wave radio is better (not voiced but a gnawing impresion) ... He will quietly dump the BS thing at Audiogon, praising it, for many reasons , one of these is not to devaluate the darn thing, and the other not to appear to be a tin-eared audiophile.. you know, those ASR type who listen to measurements ... Notice that in the meantimes, he would never had measured anything, nor tried or used EQ or DSP.. the motions have been mostly mechanical: move the speakers a bit, "Vibration control" etc.. but never anything electronics (Oh the horror) that would mess with the "purity" of the signal ...
So after a few months (maybe a year or 2) the Boressen are gone .. replaced by something in the "same price range" ... in the same room. Upon placing the new , expensive speaker in the same room , new trip to Nirvana... although in the back of his mind the Bose Wave radio sounded so good... in the meantime , another reviewer writes about the next better product from ..

And the merry goes round.. 'till when? I can tell you from experience that most (No data) of those people never learn.

 

[Gibsonian]

A new interview of Michael Børresen appears to explain a lot.

Sounds like next guy in selling carbon structured submarine rides.....

 

[Mart68]

Hi
.
Imagine for a few minutes subjective audiophile with money, and having read a review of something like the Boressen's with all the usual paeans ... He (most likely. HE) brings it home and ... cannot fully understand why the Bose Wave radio in the same environment seems to sound sound better... What do you think this audiophile will do? And the esteemed Magazine told him it was the best, or at least one of the best!!! He will question his own system and, most likely change... something in his system, perhaps, the cables for "synergy" .. After such (expensive, but who's counting?) changes , results that, at first, were "night and day", are (in the back of his mind) not as good as the Bose Wave radio. .. He knows he has golden ears since, he is after all, a discerning audiophile. So he goes to the next steps, his current DAC may not be up to the task so ..."better" (, in HEA parlance , more expensive) DAC< .. Good but no cigar, so, next steps would be the amps.. or the preamp or ... the magical thing .. Room treatments!! Still after several months have passed, the Bose Wave radio is better (not voiced but a gnawing impresion) ... He will quietly dump the BS thing at Audiogon, praising it, for many reasons , one of these is not to devaluate the darn thing, and the other not to appear to be a tin-eared audiophile.. you know, those ASR type who listen to measurements ... Notice that in the meantimes, he would never had measured anything, nor tried or used EQ or DSP.. the motions have been mostly mechanical: move the speakers a bit, "Vibration control" etc.. but never anything electronics (Oh the horror) that would mess with the "purity" of the signal ...
So after a few months (maybe a year or 2) the Boressen are gone .. replaced by something in the "same price range" ... in the same room. Upon placing the new , expensive speaker in the same room , new trip to Nirvana... although in the back of his mind the Bose Wave radio sounded so good... in the meantime , another reviewer writes about the next better product from ..

And the merry goes round.. 'till when? I can tell you from experience that most (No data) of those people never learn.

Spot on. Seen that played out so many times. You tell them 'The speakers are wank mate, that's the issue' but they won't have it. The price! The reviews!''

If they're really unlucky they'll stick with them as Patricia Barber sounds good through them so it must be that most recordings are badly made and the speaker is so good it's just showing them up for what they are.

Then they go out and spend a fortune on 'all analogue' (even though they aren't) audiophile pressings at £180 a go and accumulate ten versions trying to find a 'good' one.

 

[FrantzM]

As much as ASR folks will recoil from these measurements and condemn any such speaker, the fact is we know that some things can sound better than the measurements look. By that I mean certain peaks or dips in frequency response may not sound as obvious or bad as they look on a graph.
And as much as “ designing by ear” is disparaged, it’s not implausible that such a process results in frequency response deviations that “ to the ear” aren’t as obvious as they look.

And of course, the other variable: you can have frequency response variations that are only obvious or offputting with some recordings and not others. I have a bass node or two in my set up but it’s only obvious very occasionally, and in other cases I think it adds a bit of punch that I like.

And then you have the fact that people can adapt to colorations. So if you find you’ve easily adapted to the colorations in the loudspeaker, you may find yourself able to enjoy the good or more compelling aspects of the speaker.

Erin if I recall correctly said that the bass coloration in the X3 could be kind of fun and add a sense of punch, and he also commented on the spacious imaging and the very good image focus.

Likewise my friend who had the X6 noticed the recessed qualities on some piano recording right off the bat, but otherwise and lots of material it didn’t tend to show up as a single obnoxious“colouration” sticking out per se but more of a general slightly recessed, relaxed quality overall, and since he didn’t find that disqualifying of his enjoyment, he was able to enjoy the spacious and focussed imaging, the sense of easy, fine detail and the kick ass quality of the bass response on lots of tracks.

So there can be a valid sense in which we have the measurements and in which that hoary old audiophile response “but have you heard it?” has a bit of validity. If you’re looking for speakers with “ good measurements” with respect to what ASR accepts as best practises then it’s easy to dismiss any speaker that measures poorly with respect to that goal. It’s less easy for many people to precisely predict exactly how loudspeaker will sound from the measurements. Once you move in to the wild west of speaker designs in which speakers can measure all over the map in terms of combinations of on-axis frequency deviations, off axis behaviour, different room interactions, etc.

I’ve seen some ASR members try to predict from measurements the sound of speakers they have not heard, but which I’ve heard, and some where well off what I heard.

Even people well-versed in measurements like Amir, Erin, JA (and every speaker designer I can remember commenting on the topic) has had surprises here or there moving from how something measures to the subjective impressions? “ with many recordings this particular frequency response deviation did not seem as obvious to the ear as it looks in the graph.”

So do the Borresen speakers measure poorly with respect to ASR criteria? Of course.
I’m with ASR here and feeling that the measurements of Borresen speakers we’ve seen so far suggests “ the emperor has no clothes” in terms of MB’s speaker design prowess.

But that doesn’t necessarily mean that they sound as bad, or as bad to some people, as the uproar would suggests given the issues I’ve mentioned above.

Maybe some people will latch onto any frequency response deviation they detect and that will be enough to put them off.

But other listeners may adapt to that and enjoy other aspects of the speaker. I’ve heard speakers that I can clearly hear have frequency response deviations, but which nonetheless are doing some other really cool and compelling things that make them fun to listen to.

Hi

I could agree with some of your points... Not all, mind you.
As @OCA noted it in one of his posts, can't recall which one, and I am not paraphrasing: It isn't about about a flat line in FR, it is much more ... for things to sound good. Many of us here , get that. ..
...
But the elephant in the Room is the brutal price for something that is a poor performer. And this is too common in the HEA.. B.S. products for Diamond prices .... Really this is BAD, for any price , but for that price.. This speaker is not close to a $200 JBL LSR 308 and you can make, the 308 sound as bad... with EQ or some DSP...
That's what I think we object to. We also object that the magazines are consciously misleading the customers ... and, constantly. That, calls upon the human sense of fairness and must be confronted .. On top of that, the """"designer"""" (a generous descriptor), comes up with a 40 foot container of bovine manure to further the plundering. It is enough to get some blood boiling...
For my part, I am annoyed but no longer enraged ... There are no real victims, only enablers; yet, we at ASR are part of the line of defense, and these people will be taken to task... at least, I will try when I can. or care enough..

 

[singular]

But the elephant in the Room is the brutal price for something that is a poor performer. And this is too common in the HEA.. B.S. products for Diamond prices ....

Even worse.

Try to manufacture highend loudspeakers and you will get after one decade that you cannot use any serious producer of drive units on the market.
So you start to search for one which could make a barter with your knowledge.
You make your own basket design and couple of good performering midbass, teeeters, shorting rings, rear chambers etc.
To get something right on the market for audiophiles.

After second decade you realize that drive unit producers do not listen to music and used your knowledge to supply for 10 times bigger producer of loudspeakers - so you after all is still small fish to hook for them and they concetrate other direction.
You cannot have any new design, no barter, no way.
The quality inconsistent.

So you go back to drive units you used 20 years ago with wishes and your new knowledge how to make a better performer in different envelope.
All suppliers still have problems with glue on surround even for the most expensive units, consistency of Fs, upper end, Le behavior, with harmonic distortion you cannot change due to coupling of things etc.

After all you have a couple of OEMs which are nice, good, of your design, and high efficiency - but the speakers are almost invisible for audiophiles because it is already 10 years after you advertised big change in paradigma, and people still moving towards milestones and diaphragms of well known players in brands.

So you start to use the best of the best in drive units, even if the glue is still bad.
You can stick it back and repair, but you want them to know.
You make ultra audiophilic concept of crossovers in loudspeakers made in limited edition of 10 pieces.
Because you do goods for audiophiles, you set the price for them - qiute nice.
7 pairs of ten finaly out for reasonably low price, then no more.
The price is under limit what can rich man recognize and quality of your design is for 20 years - so small audiophile market is full and everybody is happy.

Except you.

You are trying to do poducts without woodoo marketing, glossy shine, or hundred kilograms of Aluminium...proper HE but with price for rich man.
But due to it no rich man interested.

All the time you sell for 25% to guys reselling your product.
After 10 years they are happy and rich enough to buy your manufacturing high end audio company.
One, second...third.
You start to secure your company.

And even worse...somebody learn from your unique manufacturing skills and started to copy your success from other side of the world.

And audiophiles see only big players with huge engineering companies often lacking sense of detail in quantity, what they do not know.
Etc.

Where is mistake?
I know you may say...ah looser´s reailty.
No it is reality around us.
If ask drive unit companies they start to complain same way only on different things.

 

[kharan]

Thank you very much for sharing your thoughts based on actual ownership.
From your comments, it sounds like the Børresen may not have fully matched your preferences.
I am curious what led you to choose it initially.

To be honest, I am considering long-term value when choosing speakers.
For example, I do not personally enjoy the sound of Wilson speakers, but their strong brand presence seems to help maintain resale value.
Because of that, even if my choice turned out to be a mistake, the financial impact would likely be smaller.

To remove any confusion, I listened to them in a demo setting, I don't own Borressen speakers.

 

[dfuller]

To be honest, I am considering long-term value when choosing speakers.
For example, I do not personally enjoy the sound of Wilson speakers, but their strong brand presence seems to help maintain resale value.
Because of that, even if my choice turned out to be a mistake, the financial impact would likely be smaller.

I would encourage you to not think of speakers that way. Buy something you enjoy, and don't worry about maximizing the secondhand value. Something like KH420s or S360s are going to be considerably more enjoyable than any of the rather poorly designed megabuck audiophile speakers and for much cheaper - and they don't need amps!

I thought the high-Q behavior of the X3 might be a problem unique to that model, but since amirm also described the M6 as “Boomy and tuby” and “But large presentation,” this tendency may be consistent across the entire line.
I initially thought it happened by chance, but it might actually be intentional.

Unfortunately, it is. It's designed in badness. Peaky midbass, rapid roll off, and a pair of socking great holes at ~300hz and 3khz is pretty much the Borresen calling card.

 

[Ropeburn]

I have been buying and selling audio gear secondhand for 20 years at this point... I think TCO is a sensible metric to use. You are right that the brands with a lot of reputation / recognition tend to hold value better. From what I have seen, Genelec holds their value as well as anything you can buy. If you are thinking about spending Borrensen money, just buy high-end Genelec and smile as you get 75% of your money back in 10 years... and also in the interim, as you enjoy dramatically better sound quality.

If you have 6 figures to spend on speakers, you can hear what is heard in some of the best studios in the world. Later on if you decide to sell the speakers, you can sell them to one of them.

Right. If I'm spending half a million on speakers, it sure as hell won't be slim towers...

 

[Gibsonian]

Right. If I'm spending half a million on speakers, it sure as hell won't be slim towers...

Anti slim tower here!

 

[Multicore]

From what I have seen, Genelec holds their value as well as anything you can buy.

I noticed that too when I look for used jennys. Not much discount.

If you are thinking about spending Borrensen money, just buy high-end Genelec and smile as you get 75% of your money back in 10 years... and also in the interim, as you enjoy dramatically better sound quality.

Indeed. And you'll have a much better platform for tweaking to your personal taste.

 

[Ropeburn]

View attachment 494443

If you want something like that...

Just without the mid boost. Similar 2-3kHz hole. But at least "big" bass.

That's a 15" monkey coffin for 1200/pair, Magnat Transpuls 1500. Add mid EQ and you're set for that "colour". Virtually no money compared.

 

[dfuller]

It's a crazy day when a PMC's response is the good option.