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Michael Børresen explains himself?

Raidho speakers obviously have artistic sound too...


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Raidho speakers obviously have artistic sound too...

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Yup, that’s what I heard. (Didn’t need a blind test to hear that type of frequency response).
 
Has anyone in this thread actually listened to Børresen speakers?
I’m not exactly dying to hear them, but if there’s a demo setup nearby,
I might try them out just out of morbid curiosity.

I have heard several different models on several different occasions, from the (relatively) affordable X-series all the way up to the most expensive M series.
 
Yeah some of the comments...:rolleyes:

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Are we misrepresenting the research, or has it been debunked? Both are nonsense, but they're contradictory nonsense.

He is right that ASR is a threat to the speaker industry, though. At least if you're the part of the speaker industry invested in selling obscenely overpriced, poorly performing junk.
 
Most people don't care about measurements
And a lot of audiophiles are in love with concepts that have nothing to do with good sound quality (like tubes and vinyl).
You can tell someone that their speaker measures badly but if they like the sound it's insignificant
 
Even if a speaker measures poorly, if those deviations come from prioritizing specific design parameters
and the results are reproducible, then the manufacturer should be able to explain them — and listeners can at least understand the intent.
Manufacturers should not run away from science.
Don’t run away from ASR.
 
The remarkable part of the quoted comment is, that ASR is called "a threat to the speaker industry". The opposite is true: it is a chance for the industry to sort out the charlatans and snake oil vendors and to commit to science again.
That IS the thread! And the fact that they acknowledge this means that the rest of the arguments are wrong.
 
You put it right.
It was not about sampling resolution.
I was talking about music.
OT
Anyway once I was out when winter storm discharged to house 50m far from my spot.
( AI say positive charge is the strongest & longest to discharge )
Thunder flash about 1m in diameter and the sound of hiting the ground...was like one strong eartquake impuls.
I saw pressure wave and was luck enough to be still in the car, but my hearing was out for few minutes.
If I was in hurry I am just 5 meters from there at the time.
I still don´t get that it happened without any damage at all.
Localization?
Bass, or highs?
+/-0,5m - that is what I saw.
White column for about 1 second.
No sense to localize thunderstorm.
I was talking about music.

I like to ask my medical friends, "how many holes does a human body have?". They start counting. Then I remind them that a topological "hole" has to be continuous. As humans are coelomates, we only have one hole (mouth to ****). Everything else is an invagination.
"Tube within a tube", as the developmental biologists like to say. :)
 
Most people don't care about measurements
And a lot of audiophiles are in love with concepts that have nothing to do with good sound quality (like tubes and vinyl).
You can tell someone that their speaker measures badly but if they like the sound it's insignificant

As much as ASR folks will recoil from these measurements and condemn any such speaker, the fact is we know that some things can sound better than the measurements look. By that I mean certain peaks or dips in frequency response may not sound as obvious or bad as they look on a graph.
And as much as “ designing by ear” is disparaged, it’s not implausible that such a process results in frequency response deviations that “ to the ear” aren’t as obvious as they look.

And of course, the other variable: you can have frequency response variations that are only obvious or offputting with some recordings and not others. I have a bass node or two in my set up but it’s only obvious very occasionally, and in other cases I think it adds a bit of punch that I like.

And then you have the fact that people can adapt to colorations. So if you find you’ve easily adapted to the colorations in the loudspeaker, you may find yourself able to enjoy the good or more compelling aspects of the speaker.

Erin if I recall correctly said that the bass coloration in the X3 could be kind of fun and add a sense of punch, and he also commented on the spacious imaging and the very good image focus.

Likewise my friend who had the X6 noticed the recessed qualities on some piano recording right off the bat, but otherwise and lots of material it didn’t tend to show up as a single obnoxious“colouration” sticking out per se but more of a general slightly recessed, relaxed quality overall, and since he didn’t find that disqualifying of his enjoyment, he was able to enjoy the spacious and focussed imaging, the sense of easy, fine detail and the kick ass quality of the bass response on lots of tracks.

So there can be a valid sense in which we have the measurements and in which that hoary old audiophile response “but have you heard it?” has a bit of validity. If you’re looking for speakers with “ good measurements” with respect to what ASR accepts as best practises then it’s easy to dismiss any speaker that measures poorly with respect to that goal. It’s less easy for many people to precisely predict exactly how loudspeaker will sound from the measurements. Once you move in to the wild west of speaker designs in which speakers can measure all over the map in terms of combinations of on-axis frequency deviations, off axis behaviour, different room interactions, etc.

I’ve seen some ASR members try to predict from measurements the sound of speakers they have not heard, but which I’ve heard, and some where well off what I heard.

Even people well-versed in measurements like Amir, Erin, JA (and every speaker designer I can remember commenting on the topic) has had surprises here or there moving from how something measures to the subjective impressions? “ with many recordings this particular frequency response deviation did not seem as obvious to the ear as it looks in the graph.

So do the Borresen speakers measure poorly with respect to ASR criteria? Of course.
I’m with ASR here and feeling that the measurements of Borresen speakers we’ve seen so far suggests “ the emperor has no clothes” in terms of MB’s speaker design prowess.

But that doesn’t necessarily mean that they sound as bad, or as bad to some people, as the uproar would suggests given the issues I’ve mentioned above.

Maybe some people will latch onto any frequency response deviation they detect and that will be enough to put them off.

But other listeners may adapt to that and enjoy other aspects of the speaker. I’ve heard speakers that I can clearly hear have frequency response deviations, but which nonetheless are doing some other really cool and compelling things that make them fun to listen to.
 
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How do they compare to the Manta? ;)

I won't answer that. :)

As a manufacturer I don't want to comment too much on another manufacturer. But they don't sound as horrible as I suspect some of you think based on the measurements. And they are good at picking music at the shows of course.

I've never heard them be harsh or hard, sometimes punchy. Feels like they're usually quite lean in the lower bass, and they're often placed in quite large rooms and far out on the floor (2+ meters), which means they avoid the worst bass issues. They're obviously dynamically constrained (no matter how many 4" drivers they put in them), but that's not necessarily a problem for all customers.

Soundstage / imaging has generally been unimpressive when I've heard them, but I will leave it inconclusive to what extent that was a result of the room / placement or the speakers.

My design philosophy and approach is so far from Børresen it is hard to comment much further, that goes for everything from engineering to marketing, so it's hard to comment much further. There seem to be an audience for both, so that's fine with me. :)
 
Likewise my friend who had the X6 noticed the recessed qualities on some piano recording right off the bat

That's funny. From the start of this topic I’ve been thinking, let me play a piano recording and Børresen’s theories fall to pieces. It’s nonsense to believe speakers can have peaks or dips in the mid range without consequences, or even better, are beneficial. Someone who believes so needs to play a wider variation of recordings and pay more attention. Unless he’s only interested in a specific genre that's not to demanding.
 
"As a manufacturer I don't want to comment too much on another manufacturer" you commented a fair amount!

Was it too much? :D

EDIT: That sentence was mostly as an answer to the request of comparing them to one of our speakers.
 
No one plays piano recordings at hifi shows
But a lot of brands like to use this track, that does actually sound pretty good
That's funny. From the start of this topic I’ve been thinking, let me play a piano recording and Børresen’s theories fall to pieces. It’s nonsense to believe speakers can have peaks or dips in the mid range without consequences, or even better, are beneficial. Someone who believes so needs to play a wider variation of recordings and pay more attention. Unless he’s only interested in a specific genre that's not to demanding.
 
No one plays piano recordings at hifi shows
But a lot of brands like to use this track, that does actually sound pretty good

At one show I attended KEF played some piano tracks through their flagship MUON Speakers.

It was the most realistic reproduction of piano that I’ve ever heard.

(I listen to lots of piano tracks in my system, and I love what I hear… great clarity and dynamics and I don’t hear obvious unevenness).
 
Was it too much? :D

EDIT: That sentence was mostly as an answer to the request of comparing them to one of our speakers.
I read it as if you were stating, indirectly, that Manta is much better than Borresen.
Having read it again, I probably misinterpreted it.

Manta $41,171ca wow
 
Has anyone in this thread actually listened to Børresen speakers?

I actually have. Can confirm the models I have heard were not reproducing in a neutral manner, but in a particular way ´sounded´, presumably to serve a certain type of ´audiophile´s taste´, if that makes sense. Highlighted, but very punchy and ´groovy´, yet not bloated upper bass, recessed brilliance band and proximity, non-fatiguing, ultra-transparent, ´silky´ treble detail resolution might describe it. Not a speaker I would like to listen to again, or I would recommend to anyone, but certainly not intolerable, maybe even meeting a particular demand of buyers who are not aiming for natural, neutral reproduction.
 
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