111db
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A new interview of Michael Børresen appears to explain a lot.
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Michael Børresen explains himself?
- Thread starter 111db
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He is certainly lost. Likely he is now used to that suck out so he thinks a speaker that doesn't have it, sounds too forward. He is in dire need of a controlled listening test to realize that you do want flat on axis response.
MattHooper
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Lotta folk theories in high-end audio, that’s for sure.
OP
111db
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I think he is dire need of a LOT of tests, not all audio related! I couldn't finish the interview, I was so confused by his assertions. It seemed he was claiming that a speaker shouldn't be flat because if it is our brains will process it to not flat. There has to be some kind of emperor's new clothes psyop in play. But that is broadly applicable in audiophile world.
RexrothPigeon
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Keith_W
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"Genius" 
I could only listen to a minute of his babble. He talks about the missing fundamental effect (where the brain "hears" the fundamental because the harmonics are present) and use it as an argument AGAINST low bass reproduction. The premise is true, the conclusion isn't.
A typical snake oil salesman knows how to mix enough truth in with the lies to bamboozle his audience. I suppose that's what his genius is about.
I could only listen to a minute of his babble. He talks about the missing fundamental effect (where the brain "hears" the fundamental because the harmonics are present) and use it as an argument AGAINST low bass reproduction. The premise is true, the conclusion isn't.
A typical snake oil salesman knows how to mix enough truth in with the lies to bamboozle his audience. I suppose that's what his genius is about.
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Let's see, should I listen to someone who designs poor measuring, expensive loudspeakers but has nothing to substantiate his statement besides his own opinion, or decades of research (plus my own experience) demonstrating that we do, in fact, prefer a flat measuring loudspeaker. Tough decision.
But if people can reject overwhelming evidence of things like a spherical Earth or germ theory based on their personal feelings, it shouldn't be surprising they can do the same for audio.
But if people can reject overwhelming evidence of things like a spherical Earth or germ theory based on their personal feelings, it shouldn't be surprising they can do the same for audio.
I, for one, reject the spherical Earth theory. It's been known since the 17th century that an ellipsoid is a better approximation.
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Specifically it's an oblate spheroid. I consider that "spherical" by definition.
Perhaps one cannot generalize like the quote below regarding competence (think of all the good expensive speakers Amir and Erin test) BUT unfortunately it seems to be true relatively often:
HiFi is a very unusual field in that the design competence usually falls sharply for the most expensive products. This is usually compensated by extensive marketing hype and fantastic furniture craftsmanship.
Speaking of furniture craftsmanship. Don't
Michael Børresen and Lars Kristensen, heads of Audio Group Denmark, have a background as furniture manufacturers? I think I read it somewhere. Maybe some Danish ASR member knows more about it?
Edit:
Opportunistic gold diggers in high end hifi and falling competence I think is more correct.
BUT! That category does not include, just to name a few; KEF, Genelec and Neumann and so on. You get the point.
Nor new manufacturers that focus on high end do not necessarily fall into that category (on the contrary, focus on good sound), for example:
www.audiosciencereview.com
HiFi is a very unusual field in that the design competence usually falls sharply for the most expensive products. This is usually compensated by extensive marketing hype and fantastic furniture craftsmanship.
Speaking of furniture craftsmanship. Don't
Michael Børresen and Lars Kristensen, heads of Audio Group Denmark, have a background as furniture manufacturers? I think I read it somewhere. Maybe some Danish ASR member knows more about it?
Edit:
Opportunistic gold diggers in high end hifi and falling competence I think is more correct.
BUT! That category does not include, just to name a few; KEF, Genelec and Neumann and so on. You get the point.
Nor new manufacturers that focus on high end do not necessarily fall into that category (on the contrary, focus on good sound), for example:
Cadentia 3 Product Development thread / Audio First Designs
Hi everyone, some of you might have seen my replies in the Fidelia DIY kit thread about a new 3-way product Cadentia 3. I reckon it would be better to move the topic over here, put in a post specifically about it. Here is the very first prototype that went up to my Klippel NFS for the...
www.audiosciencereview.com
Last edited:
Why would we care listening to this guy at all ? .
He designs speakers by ears (must be checked if I may), and does not trust science... Results : his speakers both measure and sound horrid. Who's surprised ?
He designs speakers by ears (must be checked if I may), and does not trust science... Results : his speakers both measure and sound horrid. Who's surprised ?
Last edited:
Danish ear
Member
Prior to the Audiogroup Denmark days, Børresen was involved with the Principia bicycle company and Kristesen represented Nordost cables. Would be best if they told us their story themselves. For some reason these type of companies avoid places like this.Perhaps one cannot generalize like the quote below regarding competence (think of all the good expensive speakers Amir and Erin test) BUT unfortunately it seems to be true relatively often:
HiFi is a very unusual field in that the design competence usually falls sharply for the most expensive products. This is usually compensated by extensive marketing hype and fantastic furniture craftsmanship.
Speaking of furniture craftsmanship. Don't
Michael Børresen and Lars Kristensen, heads of Audio Group Denmark, have a background as furniture manufacturers? I think I read it somewhere. Maybe some Danish ASR member knows more about it?
Edit:
Opportunistic gold diggers in high end hifi and falling competence I think is more correct.
BUT! That category does not include, just to name a few; KEF, Genelec and Neumann and so on. You get the point.
Nor new manufacturers that focus on high end do not necessarily fall into that category (on the contrary, focus on good sound), for example:
Cadentia 3 Product Development thread / Audio First Designs
Hi everyone, some of you might have seen my replies in the Fidelia DIY kit thread about a new 3-way product Cadentia 3. I reckon it would be better to move the topic over here, put in a post specifically about it. Here is the very first prototype that went up to my Klippel NFS for the...
Hi Audiophiles,
I am new here, but I like to read some members on ASR for couple of years.
As you see I am not native in english.
After all I want to react in this thread.
As assembler I assembled by my hands literally a Ton of loudspeakers in weight. However I did not understand the art of electroacoustics completely - I just did not have an experience at that time.
Once I built a prototype of "ruler flat frequency response" loudspeakers by accident.
Meassured well, sound was not bad , compromised, but at the top in the budget competitors.
Long -> short: a missed connection on PCB - sometimes this happen.
Let us see some real measurements:
www.hifi-voice.com
I will try to explain how I see it however I dont have the listening experience with Borressen speakers:
Let us call it "classic 3-way" because this is less important now.
We can see a loudness "dip´ around 2,5kHz with electric phase in typical angle.
This dip is really sharp and resembles the character of sound.
We can also see small impedance "dip" at that point - which is probably not a "bug" but I rather call it M.B.s philosophy how to design drive units and crossovers - less capacity at notch filters etc. - the same what we can see also at 28Hz and 76Hz.
I agree to everything what M.B. translated to english in the video.
Let me explain one "phenomenon" I see on ASR.. here I often see the need for flat frequency response...from where this comes from?...we are not talking about studio monitors and even those are not flat.
But after some time I used to it.
It is just matter of how I compare sources.
If I forget phase completely...Klippel measures virtual roundabout measurements completed in lot of responses - I like that.
One of the computed is called "Estimate In Room Response", which I only see as my reference to compare with real In room measurements of other loudspeakers.
As you may see, the "Estimated In Room Response"s of "ruler flat" Klippel freq. often look similar to the real in room measurements - with "dip" around 2,5kHz - and other tendencies in freq. response.
One thing what is rather unique with these Borressen speakers is very low H3 overall - there is no typical connection of H2 and H3 from trebles up, H2 dominates.
Well done M.B., however I will never buy your speakers due to high price.
Listening stereo is about our brain computing with less fatigue to our ears.
I design and measure in room with Clio Pocket.
P.S. I apologize to M.B. if he meant this thread to be a "bad advertising"
I am new here, but I like to read some members on ASR for couple of years.
As you see I am not native in english.
After all I want to react in this thread.
As assembler I assembled by my hands literally a Ton of loudspeakers in weight. However I did not understand the art of electroacoustics completely - I just did not have an experience at that time.
Once I built a prototype of "ruler flat frequency response" loudspeakers by accident.
Meassured well, sound was not bad , compromised, but at the top in the budget competitors.
Long -> short: a missed connection on PCB - sometimes this happen.
Let us see some real measurements:
Børresen X3
Jméno Michaela Børresena a jeho Audio Group Denmark jste už jistě slyšeli nejen od nás. Tento všestranný a zvídavý konstruktér si ostruhy v audio světě zasloužil u Raidho, ale v jeho resumé najdete i množství nehrajících výrobků, třeba i zavazadlových vozíků, používaných na dánských letištích a...
I will try to explain how I see it however I dont have the listening experience with Borressen speakers:
Let us call it "classic 3-way" because this is less important now.
We can see a loudness "dip´ around 2,5kHz with electric phase in typical angle.
This dip is really sharp and resembles the character of sound.
We can also see small impedance "dip" at that point - which is probably not a "bug" but I rather call it M.B.s philosophy how to design drive units and crossovers - less capacity at notch filters etc. - the same what we can see also at 28Hz and 76Hz.
I agree to everything what M.B. translated to english in the video.
Let me explain one "phenomenon" I see on ASR.. here I often see the need for flat frequency response...from where this comes from?...we are not talking about studio monitors and even those are not flat.
But after some time I used to it.
It is just matter of how I compare sources.
If I forget phase completely...Klippel measures virtual roundabout measurements completed in lot of responses - I like that.
One of the computed is called "Estimate In Room Response", which I only see as my reference to compare with real In room measurements of other loudspeakers.
As you may see, the "Estimated In Room Response"s of "ruler flat" Klippel freq. often look similar to the real in room measurements - with "dip" around 2,5kHz - and other tendencies in freq. response.
One thing what is rather unique with these Borressen speakers is very low H3 overall - there is no typical connection of H2 and H3 from trebles up, H2 dominates.
Well done M.B., however I will never buy your speakers due to high price.
Listening stereo is about our brain computing with less fatigue to our ears.
I design and measure in room with Clio Pocket.
P.S. I apologize to M.B. if he meant this thread to be a "bad advertising"
Start reading:
Dr. Toole's 4th Edition Book is Coming! (Discount)
I don't know about you but I am quite anxious to get my hands on the much expended 4th edition of Dr. Toole's book: https://www.routledge.com/Sound-Reproduction-The-Acoustics-and-Psychoacoustics-of-Loudspeakers-Rooms-and-Headphones/Toole-Olive-Welti/p/book/9781032761930 Sound Reproduction...
www.audiosciencereview.com
.5% distortion at 90 dB isn’t particularly good, btw.
Yes, -60dB is always better - not seen often.Start reading:
Dr. Toole's 4th Edition Book is Coming! (Discount)
I don't know about you but I am quite anxious to get my hands on the much expended 4th edition of Dr. Toole's book: https://www.routledge.com/Sound-Reproduction-The-Acoustics-and-Psychoacoustics-of-Loudspeakers-Rooms-and-Headphones/Toole-Olive-Welti/p/book/9781032761930 Sound Reproduction...
.5% distortion at 90 dB isn’t particularly good, btw.
Around 1,5kHz H3 is in "peak", but still under H2.
Tweeter, Midbass, Xover or just a floor?
I doubt this THD measurement is done gated in room, and look at this huge amount of racks and electronics in the middle.
So I agree, but I see it as "real listening session at salesman" measurement.
It is never 100% as it could be in treated room at home.
Also bass measurements in listening studios are often compromised and one need to think about tuning freq., phase, and room treatment there, to get where is -6dB...things in Klippel well estimated.
Grotti
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One might take a look at the Klippel measurements of the X3 Erin published on his site:
In my book this is close to designing a "defective" speaker on purpose. Linearity, distortion, compression, bass extension, directivity: it's a mess.
In my book this is close to designing a "defective" speaker on purpose. Linearity, distortion, compression, bass extension, directivity: it's a mess.
Svend P
Addicted to Fun and Learning
According to Linkedin, Michael is a mechanical engineer
I couldn't find anything on Lars, but here is a link to a factory tour. They work together with the founder of Gryphon, Flemming Rasmussen, which makes sense, since they are in the same marked segment. There are no pictures of the boxes with snake oil, but they must have it stored in massive amounts somewhere.
The Audio Group Denmark factory tour #2 – HiFi Knights
In 2019 I visited the city of Aalborg to learn about Audio Group Denmark and its brands Aavik, Ansuz and Børresen.In 2023 I was invited there again. Enjoy!
hifiknights.com
So I see, those messurements in "real" enviroment looks much better.
Perhaps some response EQ on purpose attitude.
I am not friend of "defective on purpose" term but attitude could work if it is well addressed - which is almost never exactly.
No they don’t. It’s just that the measurement setup is so much worse.
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