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Mhdt Labs Pagoda Review (R2R Tube DAC)

Rate this DAC:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 262 91.3%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 4 1.4%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther

    Votes: 1 0.3%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 20 7.0%

  • Total voters
    287

aj625

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We're discussing two different things here, I'm afraid. One is the equipment, and the other is the signal.

People who purchase equipment need to trust that the equipment is sufficiently neutral to reproduce what is on their recordings. Equipment cannot ever be perfect, but it can be perfect enough for perceived neutrality. The designers and manufacturers of equipment have no way of knowing what the customer desires nor what type of music or recording the customer will play. Perhaps the customer will play pop, with heavy processing. Perhaps they will play techno, even a recording with no acoustic signals at all. But they might play opera, or folk (even bluegrass), or orchestral pieces, and want to hear the greatest fidelity and clarity possible.

If their equipment is not neutral, it affects everything they play. One person may find that attractive. Others may find it ..... unattractive, to say the least.

A comparison: Water as signal, piping and pumps as equipment.

No one wants to drink dirty water. Clean enough to, as I said, a standard, is what they desire. Once it's clean, people can "contaminate" it to make beer, wine, whiskey, Kool-Aid or lemonade to their heart's delight. But many people will still want to drink just plain, pure water.

If someone at the water plant were to add contaminant to the water after it had been been cleaned, we would blame that person, not the piping. Why? Because the contamination would be forced on all the customers, event the ones who found it detestable, by the avoidable act of one person.

You may believe your Kool-Aid is better. I may not.


Music is art. Recording is science. Playback is science. Accuracy is science. Measurements are science.
Pure water is art. Delivery and distribution is science. Whiskey, beer, lemonade and Kool-Aid are made by customers who desire to do so AFTER the pure water has been delivered to them.



No one is telling anyone else anything of the kind. No one who drinks pure water is telling someone that they shouldn't make beer, wine, whiskey or Kool-Aid. They're also not telling anyone that they shouldn't LIKE and PREFER beer, wine, whiskey or Kool-Aid.

The people who prefer pure water simply dislike having beer, wine, whiskey, lemonade or Kool-Aid forced on to them.

As I said .... you can make the pure signal dirty, but you can't make the dirty signal clean again. I also don't want a DAC in my system that contaminates the signal even more.
Boss your efforts are all going to waste As I said such people who spread the love for colored playback mostly have high end poor measuring boutique equipments. They can go to any extent to defend their decision and satisfy their false ego. See I am asking a simple question how coloring the playback can improve over the original recording but he is not answering. :p
 

audio2design

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Often certain plug-ins during the mixing process is only applied to one channel (instrument) and configured for that instrument.
I do not know of mixing (or mastering) engineers applying some 'tube sound' to the entire mix which is what one is doing as a consumer.

But yes, people can do whatever they want to the recordings they have. In fact, sometimes I EQ an entire album when I find the tonal balance off.
This is sometimes the case. Not all mixing engineers seem to have proper hearing or flat monitors.

Is it now suited to my taste or is an error corrected (tonal balance opposite well made recordings).

I have not been keeping up on plugins in about 8ish years, but more often than not, it was applied to a single instrument, but I remember one engineer whose name escapes me did use it fading it in and out on whole sections of the mix. I want to say it was like a loudness function, but it more gave some clarity to mid-upper, but left bass the the same. I should find him on LinkedIn and get the details.

It is the old question, where their ears bad or mine ...or their system or yours or. Whether you are fixing an error or changing to suit your tastes ... does it matter?
 

audio2design

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Force it onto others? Are you not able to make your own decisions? Ignoring reality does not change reality.
 

tvrgeek

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Here is a classic case where objective measurements separate the cream from crap. When they are this bad, no need to go hear one.
In my search for reviews of 22 DACS, this is not the only place where it was trashed. Seems at least some of the subjective reviewers can identify garbage when they hear it. That is not to say all R2R are obsolete of bad. Different flaws. As far as I can tell, no one has produced a DAC that reached the "good enough they are all the same" level.

Tubes are just another tool. They can be done well. They can be done poorly. No difference from any other technology. They are a very linear voltage gain amplifier but I don't want to put up with them.
 

fcdvpds

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Visually yes. The fact that you can see all those components says enough. But well-executed...? One could probably make a pretty good measuring DAC with the components you mentioned. The trick is: it requires actual knowledge and engineering, clearly, none of these were present when cobbling together this monstrosity.
so you think a team that puts together a product and manages to successfully bring it to the market does not have actual knowledge and engineering skills? Let me know what products you brought to the market ;-)
 

tvrgeek

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so you think a team that puts together a product and manages to successfully bring it to the market does not have actual knowledge and engineering skills? Let me know what products you brought to the market ;-)
I wish I could share your optimism. Unfortunately with SOME Chinese clones, they do not have the depth of experience needed. They are getting there. I remember exchanging information with a bright young Chinese engineer selling small boards with a couple of mistakes even I could find. Not because I am some great PhD, I am not, but I have been around a long time. I believe most of them are gaining that experience and over time, the design quality will improve. 5 or 10 years of experience is not like 30 or 40 especially when they can't ask the old guys yet.

Do remember how fragmented industry is. A marketing firm may say " I want a DAC with these advertising features"
Then some engineer designs, adapts or flat out steals a design.
That goes to an applications company who does the layout, packaging and detail design
Then off to various FAB companies Metal, boards etc. Most using subs.
Finally to an assembler and packager.
The marketing firm may not know anything about electronic circuits. They know the logistics of the pipe. Most design engineers do not know the logistic pipe.

Only larger older companies, maybe SMSL and Topping, have the wherewithal to do more of these steps in-house and I expect to have better oversite to the entire pipe. Some small companies, Schiit, JDS, Emotiva and many others DO have the full pipe, but you will find they have a team of very experienced folks from the industry. I mean really old guys who have been there before several times. That depth does not exist yet in China. It will. I am not saying that to support them, but to warn everyone else.

To your "to market" question. One of my degrees is in business so I know better. I DIY and buy. :)
 

voodooless

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so you think a team that puts together a product and manages to successfully bring it to the market does not have actual knowledge and engineering skills? Let me know what products you brought to the market ;-)
What does one thing have to do with the other? As for bringing products to the market: have been doing that for almost 20 years, so your jab won't work with me.
 

tvrgeek

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some people still listen with the ears ;-)
It has been relayed to me by those who have done the tests, given valid blind testing, the majority of people do prefer some sorts of distortion. To an extent and it varies. Typically even low order harmonics higher than odd and high order. ow much seems to vary person to person. But odd high order harmonics are universally disliked. It matters in use-case. Headphones are not the same as speakers. Is .001% second order distortion bad just because we can measure it? Why does .1% third sound terrible when the speaker is producing 2%? I don't know but it does (to me)

Or, are we "trained" for some set of distortions. We expect it. So if given a signal way cleaner, do we find it less desirable? Do we re-train ourselves where eventually we prefer the cleaner signal? Do the environment reflections skew our viewpoints as they can be frequency selective? Background noises? We do not understand why there seems to be cultural or ethnic differences, but the marketing departments are learning to track this and maybe science will catch up. Maybe we will learn to make measurements that explain some of the listeners preferences. Even ones we can make, like a CSD plot, take some effort in understanding and relating to the sound. ( plots often highly misleading BTW)

These are things we do not know. So who is correct, listeners or measurers? The correct answer is "yes"
 

fcdvpds

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Willful ignorance in the "trust my ears" crowd is a gift, that they brandish around like a badge of honor. God forbid you ever question their integrity and belief. :facepalm:
if you listen with your ears the normal thing is to evaluate sound quality with the ears. dhaaa
 

fcdvpds

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What does one thing have to do with the other? As for bringing products to the market: have been doing that for almost 20 years, so your jab won't work with me.
your comment implies that there's lack of knowledge and engineering in mhdt labs design team. I think it's a wrong conclusion. let us know more about your product... let us appreciate your knowledge and design skills...don't be shy
 

fcdvpds

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I wish I could share your optimism. Unfortunately with SOME Chinese clones, they do not have the depth of experience needed. They are getting there. I remember exchanging information with a bright young Chinese engineer selling small boards with a couple of mistakes even I could find. Not because I am some great PhD, I am not, but I have been around a long time. I believe most of them are gaining that experience and over time, the design quality will improve. 5 or 10 years of experience is not like 30 or 40 especially when they can't ask the old guys yet.

Do remember how fragmented industry is. A marketing firm may say " I want a DAC with these advertising features"
Then some engineer designs, adapts or flat out steals a design.
That goes to an applications company who does the layout, packaging and detail design
Then off to various FAB companies Metal, boards etc. Most using subs.
Finally to an assembler and packager.
The marketing firm may not know anything about electronic circuits. They know the logistics of the pipe. Most design engineers do not know the logistic pipe.

Only larger older companies, maybe SMSL and Topping, have the wherewithal to do more of these steps in-house and I expect to have better oversite to the entire pipe. Some small companies, Schiit, JDS, Emotiva and many others DO have the full pipe, but you will find they have a team of very experienced folks from the industry. I mean really old guys who have been there before several times. That depth does not exist yet in China. It will. I am not saying that to support them, but to warn everyone else.

To your "to market" question. One of my degrees is in business so I know better. I DIY and buy. :)
Taiwan is very different from Mainland China and they have been leading silicon production for years now. We are not talking about Chinese clones here. In fact, for the good or the worst, mhdt design is quite unique and innovative.
 
D

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if you listen with your ears the normal thing is to evaluate sound quality with the ears. dhaaa

Listening and evaluating are two different things. Evaluation is analysis using logic and comparisons to some sort of standard. When you listen, no one can be sure that they hear the same thing that you do. When you evaluate, the standards of evaluation that you use should translate to the same results for someone in some entirely different place.

Let me know what products you brought to the market ;-)

This is a red herring, and I think you know that it's a red herring. Have you brought a car to market? Yet you make decisions about a car based on standards that you have (probably) used for years, standards relating to comfort, standards relating to performance and standards relating to safety. And if you have any doubts, what do you try to find? Do you try to find a salesman's opinion? A second salesman's opinion? A third salesman's opinion? Maybe, but I doubt it.
Let's say you have serious doubts about the safety performance. You probably take that as a serious characteristic to cars, don't you? I know I do, and so do the people I know around me. But neither I nor the people around me can make usable, consistent tests on cars regarding safety. So what do we do? We turn to some entity that has the equipment to test the cars, to measure the factors involved, so as to give us information regarding the safety characteristics. We depend totally on them for this info.
That doesn't mean that we necessarily buy the car that came out on top in the safety tests. No; humans don't use information that way. They make the choices they please ...... for themselves.
So their choice is personal and unique, but it is made using standardized, impersonal tests based on logic and producing repeatable results.

And no, the car customer can't design a car, can't build a car and can't test a car. They might not even be able to change a tire or refill the windshield fluid container. That has absolutely no bearing on the fact that they evaluate a car before purchasing. But it DOES have bearing on the fact that they can't properly test a car. The less capability that they have in this regard, the more they need someone with the professional skills, the specialized equipment and the scientific training to do it for them and give them the information they need.

Or they can buy the car based on looks and appeal to their personal sense of color or form ..... and get killed in a minor crash.

If that's all right with them, then it's all right with me. But I'll take the crash test info. :) Jim
 
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tvrgeek

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Taiwan is very different from Mainland China and they have been leading silicon production for years now. We are not talking about Chinese clones here. In fact, for the good or the worst, mhdt design is quite unique and innovative.
Sorry, I did not realize it was from Taiwan. I agree, good solid history. Same logistical pipe though.

My personal view though is even though tubes can be quite linear as a VAS, they are darn hard to couple with transistor circuits so not really worth it in the long run. There is a big market for them though. Recently I have seen them as a "cure" ne "bandaids" for poorly implemented class D modules and sloppy DACs. Good marketing, but dubious engineering. I am not saying this unit is either. As I don't care to swap piles of tubes until I got a good one, or swap them every fey years, I am not doing them again. :)
 

fcdvpds

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It really feels awkward to see so much discussion about a product by people that even did not listen to it. The mhdt Atlantis (which i bet measures as bad as this one by ASR gold standard) is one of the best sounding DACs I ve ever heard. I ve been using it for more than 2 years now. Firstly with my Luxman MQ-88uc and lately with Shindo Cortese-Charlemagne 80 mono blocks. I ve been enjoying hifi since 97 and have regular visits from other hifi hobbyists. So far no one told me that my system doesn't sound good or that there's something wrong with the Dac. Other DACs I have include Audio Note One Signature, Bel Canto DAC 1, Audial S4, and AK300. I also have a modern Luxman cd player. I knew this dac would measure horrible before I purchased it. Anyone knowing a little about digital audio knows this dac cannot measure well. But that's missing the point. The intent of mhdt is to give a different perspective of how digital audio can sound. Many users love it including myself. The price point seems correct to me and my unit worked flawlessly so far. I highly recommend it.
 

aj625

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It really feels awkward to see so much discussion about a product by people that even did not listen to it. The mhdt Atlantis (which i bet measures as bad as this one by ASR gold standard) is one of the best sounding DACs I ve ever heard. I ve been using it for more than 2 years now. Firstly with my Luxman MQ-88uc and lately with Shindo Cortese-Charlemagne 80 mono blocks. I ve been enjoying hifi since 97 and have regular visits from other hifi hobbyists. So far no one told me that my system doesn't sound good or that there's something wrong with the Dac. Other DACs I have include Audio Note One Signature, Bel Canto DAC 1, Audial S4, and AK300. I also have a modern Luxman cd player. I knew this dac would measure horrible before I purchased it. Anyone knowing a little about digital audio knows this dac cannot measure well. But that's missing the point. The intent of mhdt is to give a different perspective of how digital audio can sound. Many users love it including myself. The price point seems correct to me and my unit worked flawlessly so far. I highly recommend it.
Then AM radio will sound even better. :p
 

BDWoody

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Anyone knowing a little about digital audio knows this dac cannot measure well.

Why?

There are well engineered r2r DAC's out there that show very good measurements.

This is a fuzzbox...
 
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