Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[Skeptischism]

A more thorough and referenced breakdown of the left/right brain scenario for those interested, from NPR

 

[jtgofish]

I agree with you in many respects. People, really, really underestimate the importance of placebo. For cables, placebo accounts for 99.99% of the difference heard. For DACs, maybe 99.9%, and 99% for Amps. I'd even argue that it's as high 50% for loudspeakers. We hear with our brains; not our ears. People really underestimate just how much our brain contributes to what we "hear". Most assume it's 90% ears .

Where did you pluck those statistics from? I suspect 99% out of thin air.Or 99.9% somewhere the sun does not shine.
So much for all the years that Hi Fi Choice conducted group blindfold auditioning tests on amplifiers and CD players and managed to hear substantial, repeatable and consistent differences.I still have a CD player from a 1995 group blindfold test that was found to sound really good and it still sounds really good compared to the average CD player or DAC.

 

[Anton S]

Well, it seems to me, as described, you could do the same with headphones ... if you are sitting still, eyes closed on a couch, vs sitting still, eyes closed sitting on a couch with headphones... with eyes open and moving around I get it. There is also a device called the smyth realizer, which was developed with electrostatic headphones in mind IIRC, It uses DSP, a couple small mics and some accelerometers attached to your head, to move the 'room', with your head. I can only imagine what that would sound like combined with the Stealth headphones I mentioned.

Now, the bass in your face? the moving air? yes, that is missing. There is room for all of these tools in my life. I'd love to try the realizer, but i'm more focused on speakers and room DSP myself at this point in time.

That being said, yes, there was some snark in there too; fairly good-natured snark, but snark all the same. I found your statement dismissive (and it seems youve doubled down on it since I started typing this ...), as if anyone not listening your way, to music that tries to mimic the live event, is not listening seriously and therefor also, not serious music lovers. I rarely listen to music that requires that sort of suspension of disbelief, to try and recreate the stage and space. A few recordings and maybe more, now that actual live music is few and far between (this saddens me). I still try and catch as much live music as I can, but I dont go home and try to recreate it. Most live recordings I love are either intimate, close miced, or solo performances, which—as mentioned—rather benefit from being recorded from the POV of the artist, more than the listener. So i'm generally looking to faithfully recreate the recording, rather than the performance.

I take my music and musical reproduction pretty seriously (to the point I decided I needed to know how to design and build my own equipment). A good example is the textural delight that is the Moog Voltage Controlled filter (VCF) (or a hammond C3, fender rhodes et al). these instruments are electronic instruments; there is no 'live' in the same sense. They can soar in space, in an entirely unnatural, but nonetheless beautiful and sometimes moving way. but l can tell you it sounds a lot better without influence of the room/stage. You may even want to manipulate it within a 3d/spatial mixing space.

Sometimes I just wanna rock out!! Headphones are superb for that!

Also, the 'left brain'/'right brain' stuff is more ... 'pop science' BTW. New Wave guidance counsellors and artist workshops spent a lot of time on it, but it has no basis in reality. These activities have no propensity toward the left, or right hemispheres https://now.northropgrumman.com/the-left-brain-right-brain-myth-is-it-true/

Congratulations. You have erroneously internalized what I said, put words in my mouth, and misrepresented me all in one post. You should be proud of yourself.

 

[Skeptischism]

No, I dont think I did.

 

[Skeptischism]

You dont want me to go back and quote the bits? personalise? yeah, sure. I take it personally, as I expect do you.

 

[Skeptischism]

But its all good mate, i'm not angry. Ive seen it before. I dont begrudge you your audio nirvana and I wouldnt presume to dictate what yours should be. Of course there are reference recordings, but that is a tiny amount of my listening habits as a whole. Even then, yeah, i'm not measuring the soundstage, if it moves me, it moves me. I realize its ffleating and only loosely related to what is actually going on .. ha!

Anyway, I wont carry on any more, its bed time. i'm going to lie down in the dark, with my headphones on . It helps me to relax and process the day. I think Portishead Live tonight. Just because

 

[Anton S]

A more thorough and referenced breakdown of the left/right brain scenario for those interested, from NPR

My claim was never that you are essentially either left- or right-brained. I was merely pointing out that various mental activities are localized in different hemispheres, with one specializing more in linear, analytical tasks, and the other in the more holistic and emotional.

Perhaps a more reliable source for this sort of information ... Medical News Today Read the entire article.

 

[Skeptischism]

I know what your claim is and it is at best a terrible generalization. I myself would not fit, since I constantly utilise both those cliches at the same time. Being interested in and working over the years as a chef (deserts are both creative and amazingly technical) and time management is key in a professional kitchen, digital graphic designer, IT/computer systems consultant and technician even in this driest of the lot, it is being able to follow procedure, but also step outside the problem. Currently, at night, i'm designing and producing somewhat symmetrical (lol, i'm obsessed with symmetry ad its a balanced design), objectively proficient... and ... pleasing to the eye ...IMO.. PCB designs, on my computer, to construct an audio DAC and DSP, to replay source material as faithfully as possible, so that I may sit back, with a dog on my lap (while winter lasts) pour myself a whisky, eat some nice cheese and look at the stars. I could just buy something, but where would be the fun in that? I enjoy the creative and technical challenge, to realize a technically concise reproduction of an artistic event.

 

[Robin L]

I did read once that binaural recording and playback thru headphones can sound startlingly realistic but I've never heard it myself. In a live venue they put mics on each side of a dummy human head then the audio picked up by each is played back thru each respective side of the headphones.

I have. Just like two-channel stereo, the effect is artificial but binaural playback via headphones is more stable, as movements of the head do not alter the imaging. At the same time, the coloration of the headphones is still there, so there is a consistent falsity of sound. And even thought the sound is coming from all directions, it doesn't extend very far past one's head. While 5.1 surround also can have similar directional qualities [and the center image is naturally more stable], sound sources usually appear farther away from the head. There is also a tendency for the sound to localize near the speaker. Front to back localization of sound usually doesn't happen either, at least not in a realistic fashion.

As far as the technology for low-distortion sound [particularly as regards electronics and digital sources] has progressed, speakers and headphones have a long way to go before realistic imaging is commonplace.

 

[Anton S]

I know what your claim is and it is at best a terrible generalization. I myself would not fit, since I constantly utilise both those cliches at the same time. Being interested in and working over the years as a chef (deserts are both creative and amazingly technical) and time management is key in a professional kitchen, digital graphic designer, IT/computer systems consultant and technician even in this driest of the lot, it is being able to follow procedure, but also step outside the problem. Currently, at night, i'm designing and producing somewhat symmetrical (lol, i'm obsessed with symmetry ad its a balanced design), objectively proficient... and ... pleasing to the eye ...IMO.. PCB designs, on my computer, to construct an audio DAC and DSP, to replay source material as faithfully as possible, so that I may sit back, with a dog on my lap (while winter lasts) pour myself a whisky, eat some nice cheese and look at the stars. I could just buy something, but where would be the fun in that? I enjoy the creative and technical challenge, to realize a technically concise reproduction of an artistic event.

Congratulations again! I've just put you on ignore. Since you must have the last word and refute everything I say, HAVE AT IT!!!

 

[BluesDaddy]

Congratulations again! I've just put you on ignore. Since you must have the last word and refute everything I say, HAVE AT IT!!!

Well that got ironic fast...

 

[Anton S]

Well that got ironic fast...

Sorry, Blues Daddy, but I did not join this forum to be incessantly heckled by someone obsessed with rubbing my fur the wrong way. My most expedient solution seemed to be to simply switch off.

 

[ahofer]

I agree with you in many respects. People, really, really underestimate the importance of placebo. For cables, placebo accounts for 99.99% of the difference heard. For DACs, maybe 99.9%, and 99% for Amps. I'd even argue that it's as high 50% for loudspeakers. We hear with our brains; not our ears. People really underestimate just how much our brain contributes to what we "hear". Most assume it's 90% ears .

The question I keep coming back to is "are placebo effects constant in magnitude and direction over time". Does staring at a ginormous amplifier or glowing tubes have exactly the same effect on my listening experience each time? My prior (as well as intuition and anecdotal experience) is that the placebo effect is highly unstable and generally deteriorates with time, and that's why it is important to separate them from strictly audible phenomena.

There's certainly plenty of evidence they exist (thousands of blind tests). But to my knowledge, not much on placebo stability. It would take some interesting experiment design that I'm having trouble conceiving at the moment.

 

[GXAlan]

The question I keep coming back to is "are placebo effects constant in magnitude and direction over time". Does staring at a ginormous amplifier or glowing tubes have exactly the same effect on my listening experience each time? My prior (as well as intuition and anecdotal experience) is that the placebo effect is highly unstable and generally deteriorates with time, and that's why it is important to separate them from strictly audible phenomena.

There's certainly plenty of evidence they exist (thousands of blind tests). But to my knowledge, not much on placebo stability. It would take some interesting experiment design that I'm having trouble conceiving at the moment.

There must be instability due to upgraditis. But also bias can occur that older technology (tubes, vintage solid state) is better.

https://www.spring.org.uk/2021/07/commitment-consistency-bias.php

I think a test for this audience would be to put the same DAC into a wooden box and tell the audience that one box is a Topping and one box is a PS Audio DAC.

 

[GDK]

The question I keep coming back to is "are placebo effects constant in magnitude and direction over time". Does staring at a ginormous amplifier or glowing tubes have exactly the same effect on my listening experience each time? My prior (as well as intuition and anecdotal experience) is that the placebo effect is highly unstable and generally deteriorates with time, and that's why it is important to separate them from strictly audible phenomena.

There's certainly plenty of evidence they exist (thousands of blind tests). But to my knowledge, not much on placebo stability. It would take some interesting experiment design that I'm having trouble conceiving at the moment.

Judging by the number of second hand cables I see for sale, I believe that any perceived benefit is short-lived.

 

[BluesDaddy]

Sorry, Blues Daddy, but I did not join this forum to be incessantly heckled by someone obsessed with rubbing my fur the wrong way. My most expedient solution seemed to be to simply switch off.

Not sure why you joined, but you do seem to have a blind spot. Good that you see a solution.

 

[Mart68]

Judging by the number of second hand cables I see for sale, I believe that any perceived benefit is short-lived.

Based on nothing other than observing my own and other's behaviour with 'placebo tweaks' I'd say the illusion only survives for one listening session. Come back the next day and it's gone.

Persistence probably comes from the assumption that the improvement is still there but has become 'the new normal' and so is no longer 'night and day.' So time to look for the next hit.

Eventually you forget that the original objective was just to enjoy listening to music and you end up playing the same song fifteen times trying to decide whether one fuse sounds better than another.

 

[ahofer]

I think a test for this audience would be to put the same DAC into a wooden box and tell the audience that one box is a Topping and one box is a PS Audio DAC.

I would think a series of listening sessions where you get to stare at your equipment, but it is switched around randomly behind a screen. Even then, if you *knew it might be* switched, that would invade the placebo effect. So it would have to be unknown to the listener.

Eventually you forget that the original objective was just to enjoy listening to music and you end up playing the same song fifteen times trying to decide whether one fuse sounds better than another.

How does the old saw go? Music lovers use their equipment to listen to music, audiophiles use music to listen to their equipment?

 

[David Harper]

I've had the experience of listening to my system one day and it sounds amazingly good. A week later, listen again and it sounds sh!tty. And I didn't change anything. What's up with this??? Is it all in my head? Or did something change? Some invisible characteristic of the physical space in the room? Maybe my electricity provider switched me from hydro to nuclear? Or is placebo really this influential?

 

[BluesDaddy]

I've had the experience of listening to my system one day and it sounds amazingly good. A week later, listen again and it sounds sh!tty. And I didn't change anything. What's up with this??? Is it all in my head? Or did something change? Some invisible characteristic of the physical space in the room? Maybe my electricity provider switched me from hydro to nuclear? Or is placebo really this influential?

"Placebo" is not really the best word to describe this but, yes, it is "all in your head". It is a function of your perception, attitude, emotional state, focus or lack thereof, etc.