Message to golden-eared audiophiles posting at ASR for the first time...

[escksu]

A similar phenomenon exists in society and politics, where all change is progress (implied superiority) regardless of end results. Psychology is a YUGE factor. Many such cases!

I don't really agree. Many times, there is always trade-offs. So, end up, its whether trade-offs are worth it or not. Its really hard to find something thats really "perfect".

Even for things like cables, there are also trade-offs. Then, its not always expensive means its better. There are so many cases where a new and more expensive cable sounded worse. It ended up being returned or sold. I too have my own fair share of experience. What I thought would be better ended up being disappointed. I simply don't like it.

So, even if its placebo, it can go both ways. Need not be always better. You may also have read about pple who bought something new, they like certain aspect of it, but find it worse in other areas. Ended up selling the new stuff because they feel what they have is still better.

 

[Skeptischism]

Unfortunately, headphones, regardless of quality, are non-starters for me. I can't get past the musical stage tilting and panning with my head - completely ruins the illusion of a live performance as far as I'm concerned. I do own a couple pair that I wear at the office and on airplanes as a matter of necessity, but would never consider them for serious listening.

Fair enough. Whatever works for you. I guess it depends on the source material whether that matters and headphones are but one way to enjoy good sound wherever I am. I dont know what this 'serious listening' is, maybe i'm missing out? I use whatever the best tool is for the job. sometimes thats headphones, sometimes its IEMs, sometimes its nearfield monitors and others its standmount 2 ways. I have a small dwelling.

Anyway, I mentioned them, not as an end game sound for the thread, but if we can get this kind of jump in performance with the use of novel driver technologies and materials research for headphones, perhaps we'll reach something approaching that with full-size speakers, rooms and room treatment, using the same properties perhaps. Could a baffle act, completely as ... baffle and crossover, with the material itself acting as a waveguide and filter? just spitballing.

 

[Skeptischism]

https://spectrum.ieee.org/manipulat...und-the-development-of-acoustic-metamaterials

i'm sure its moved on in the last 4 years as well. Interesting stuff.

 

[Anton S]

Fair enough. Whatever works for you. I guess it depends on the source material whether that matters and headphones are but one way to enjoy good sound wherever I am. I dont know what this 'serious listening' is, maybe i'm missing out? I use whatever the best tool is for the job. sometimes thats headphones, sometimes its IEMs, sometimes its nearfield monitors and others its standmount 2 ways. I have a small dwelling.

Anyway, I mentioned them, not as an end game sound for the thread, but if we can get this kind of jump in performance with the use of novel driver technologies and materials research for headphones, perhaps we'll reach something approaching that with full-size speakers, rooms and room treatment, using the same properties perhaps. Could a baffle act, completely as ... baffle and crossover, with the material itself acting as a waveguide and filter? just spitballing.

I don't know if you were just being snarky, but "serious listening" for me is listening while focused on the music from my preferred listening seat in subdued lighting, and generally with my glasses removed and eyes closed to maximize my auditory processing by minimizing visual input.

 

[David Harper]

I've been an audiophile for 50 years and I've heard a lot of systems. IMO the idea that a home system should recreate the experience of a live performance is nonsense. It can't happen. Reason why is that a home audio system is speakers in your room and a live musical performance is real instruments being played in a real venue by live musicians located in three dimensional space. The first thing cannot reproduce the second.
Any more than the best 4K TV with the best home theater system can reproduce the experience of actual military combat.

 

[Anton S]

I've been an audiophile for 50 years and I've heard a lot of systems. IMO the idea that a home system should recreate the experience of a live performance is nonsense. It can't happen. Reason why is that a home audio system is speakers in your room and a live musical performance is real instruments being played in a real venue by live musicians located in three dimensional space. The first thing cannot reproduce the second.
Any more than the best 4K TV with the best home theater system can reproduce the experience of actual military combat.

Are you referring to 2-channel systems? I ask because its been my experience that multichannel systems running DSP and other processing can very closely approximate a live event. Maybe not perfectly, but very close with respect to instrument placement and the overall acoustic space.

 

[BlackTalon]

Maybe not perfectly, but very close with respect to instrument placement and the overall acoustic space.

At best, it can convey how the recording engineers and producers decided the musical event should sound.

 

[GXAlan]

I've been an audiophile for 50 years and I've heard a lot of systems. IMO the idea that a home system should recreate the experience of a live performance is nonsense. It can't happen. Reason why is that a home audio system is speakers in your room and a live musical performance is real instruments being played in a real venue by live musicians located in three dimensional space. The first thing cannot reproduce the second. Any more than the best 4K TV with the best home theater system can reproduce the experience of actual military combat.

There are two parts to your comments.

1) The experience of a live performance to include the sights, smells, audience ambience, cannot be reproduced by a home system in the way actual military combat isn't replicated an action movie. I agree with you.

2) On the other hand, reproducing much of the AUDIO experience of a live performance at home is very much do-able with specific recordings/setups. The circle of confusion plays a big role. By that, I mean that the recording has to be done in such a way to reflect a live performance.

A lot of audiophile gear or "audiophile recordings" are focused on resolution -- hearing the "rosin on the bow of a violin" or hearing the singer wet her lips before singing something is a lot of "fun" at times, but also un-realistic and hyper-real. What I can hear on a high-end audio system is very different than what I can hear live from symphony halls.

So the engineer/producer have to approach the recording with a "reproduce" the live experience perspective. There are arguments for and against doing this, the same way the loudness wars are horrible for audiophile setups but great for factory car audio.

You then have to ask about music. Reproducing live classical guitar vs. full orchestras vs. rock vs. jazz vs. taiko drums all require different speakers/gear and recording techniques. For live music, it's not so much resolution that you hear but space, ambience, dynamics, intermodular distortion. The last two are particularly important when thinking about live taiko drums played outdoors.

For solo guitar, I think the Magnepan's with true ribbons do an excellent job reproducing the effect of being there live. I find voices and singers are hyper-real on the Magnepan with the ribbon tweeter presumably adding a lot of detail that I haven't heard live. It's still a really great experience even though it's not "live."

For rock music, I have JBL S/2600 Baby Everest DD55000's as my main setup. It rolls off at 16 kHz. It's very likely that the concerts are playing things back on JBL Professional Horns so that coloration is what I'm used to hearing in the concert. The concert scenes from A Star is Born are really effective at reproducing a live concert experience when played back on a JBL horn system -- not so much on the Magnepans.

For orchestral music, I have found that the detail I hear from the strings in the symphony hall is not as crystalline or clear as most audiophile setups. That is, I don't feel as if I hear "detail" in real life. What is superb about the real symphony is that the instruments due to blur into a mess -- you can hear each instrument section distinctly and clearly. There is no intermodular distortion in the way that it happens at high volumes with many speakers. Audiophiles talk about "massed strings" but really it's the whole orchestra.

Intermodulation effects is probably one of the strengths of certain speakers that don't measure well on the frequency response but still sound great. I actually find the easiest way to showcase the strength/weakness of different systems for intermodulation is with The Echo Game from the House of Flying Daggers Soundtrack . Compared to the movie mix, which sounds great on any decent setup, the CD soundtrack sounds like a bad mix UNTIL you play it back on a low IMD/low distortion system. Another Day of Sun from the La La Land soundtrack is also good about halfway through the track when you have the a lot of people singing simultaneously. On a low IMD/low distortion system, you can individually pick out each singers and follow their lyrics easily.

The reason it's a good IMD test is that at 65-75 dB or so, many speakers do a reasonable job. But at 85-95 dB, there is a big separation between good and bad speakers.

 

[Anton S]

At best, it can convey how the recording engineers and producers decided the musical event should sound.

Umm, no. At best, I can adjust it with the processing equipment at my end to sound most convincing to me.

 

[richard12511]

I don't really agree. Many times, there is always trade-offs. So, end up, its whether trade-offs are worth it or not. Its really hard to find something thats really "perfect".

Even for things like cables, there are also trade-offs. Then, its not always expensive means its better. There are so many cases where a new and more expensive cable sounded worse. It ended up being returned or sold. I too have my own fair share of experience. What I thought would be better ended up being disappointed. I simply don't like it.

So, even if its placebo, it can go both ways. Need not be always better. You may also have read about pple who bought something new, they like certain aspect of it, but find it worse in other areas. Ended up selling the new stuff because they feel what they have is still better.

I agree with you in many respects. People, really, really underestimate the importance of placebo. For cables, placebo accounts for 99.99% of the difference heard. For DACs, maybe 99.9%, and 99% for Amps. I'd even argue that it's as high 50% for loudspeakers. We hear with our brains; not our ears. People really underestimate just how much our brain contributes to what we "hear". Most assume it's 90% ears .

 

[Sombreuil]

I agree with you in many respects. People, really, really underestimate the importance of placebo. For cables, placebo accounts for 99.99% of the difference heard. For DACs, maybe 99.9%, and 99% for Amps. I'd even argue that it's as high 50% for loudspeakers. We hear with our brains; not our ears. People really underestimate just how much our brain contributes to what we "hear". Most assume it's 90% ears .

Is there a study that shows the impact our brain has on our hearing? I'm actually wondering how big it is.

 

[JJB70]

I don't think even multi-channel replicates the experience of a live performance. It can be extremely good (so can stereo and mono) but it's not the same as being there. And not just because you don't have the sense of occasion and expectation (every live performance is unique in some way), the sound is noticeably different. Some people prefer to listen to music recordings rather than live, and as with anything in life different people have different preferences. Listening at home you don't risk any distractions from other concert goers, in many cases room acoustics may be better, you can dial down the volume, probably have a much nicer seat and get a polished performance. However I like the excitement of a live performance, not quite knowing what I will get and listening to an orchestra, instruments, vocal performers with nothing between the performer and listener. Even at a venue like the Barbican I find its less than great acoustics don't really matter and it is more of a talking point outside than in a performance. The ultimate example is organ music, there is nothing like listening to a good pipe organ.

 

[GDK]

I don't think even multi-channel replicates the experience of a live performance.

For it to truly simulate a live performance, one of the channels would need to be of someone coughing incessantly nearby.

 

[GXAlan]

I have to point out that there is a distinct difference between what sounds "live" and what sounds pleasant to the ears. I do understand many people in this forum believe that something that sounds just like the actual live performance is the best. However, i dont believe thats always the case.

Agree. Good example is mic’ing a piano from the perspective of the pianist versus the audience.

What would be nice is to figure out what other aspects outside of the traditional spinorama contribute to different experiences. I am a *believer* of IMD but I don’t know if that is just blind faith or if there is science behind it.

 

[escksu]

Agree. Good example is mic’ing a piano from the perspective of the pianist versus the audience.

What would be nice is to figure out what other aspects outside of the traditional spinorama contribute to different experiences. I am a *believer* of IMD but I don’t know if that is just blind faith or if there is science behind it.

Sorry, I had actually deleted my post as I do not want to talk about it. There is no end to this, so I don't want to talk about it anymore.

 

[BlackTalon]

Umm, no. At best, I can adjust it with the processing equipment at my end to sound most convincing to me.

Convincing to you, maybe. Accurate to the performance? You will likely never know unless you were there, and even then it is dependent on where you were sitting/ listening.

 

[Anton S]

Convincing to you, maybe. Accurate to the performance? You will likely never know unless you were there, and even then it is dependent on where you were sitting/ listening.

Accurate to the performance? You're joking, right? I've been at the production end, and I can assure you that there is nothing sacred or inviolable going on. I do attend live performances quite often, even though the house mix is often jacked out of shape. Why? Because live is the only real yardstick we have to compare audio reproduction against. After all, isn't the primary objective of this hobby the ability to create a credible sonic illusion of an actual performance by real, tangible instruments? It has certainly been my goal for some time, and I don't know anyone who says it shouldn't be.

From our brief exchange, my sense of you is that you're approaching this hobby from a much more analytical perspective than I am these days. Believe me, I suffered through my own "accuracy and fidelity above all else" stage many, many years ago. But isn't musical enjoyment the point of all this? And the actual enjoyment of music is primarily a right-brained experience. To clarify, here are a few activities associated with each hemisphere of your brain:

• Left hemisphere - analysis, logic, facts, math and science
• Right hemisphere - arts, creativity, emotions, intuition, imagination

Basically, whenever you play music in order to evaluate the performance your system, you're primarily engaged in left hemisphere activities. When you use your system to simply enjoy music, your mental activities are mostly located in your right hemisphere. The latter is much more fun and rewarding for me. This is not to say that I am now completely disinterested in performance specifications or objective testing. I wouldn't be on this forum if I weren't still at least interested. But the numbers no longer rule my decisions. And I no longer fret about whether or not the sounds emanating from my system are either accurate or convincingly real to anyone else, as long as they are to me.

 

[Skeptischism]

I don't know if you were just being snarky, but "serious listening" for me is listening while focused on the music from my preferred listening seat in subdued lighting, and generally with my glasses removed and eyes closed to maximize my auditory processing by minimizing visual input.

Well, it seems to me, as described, you could do the same with headphones ... if you are sitting still, eyes closed on a couch, vs sitting still, eyes closed sitting on a couch with headphones... with eyes open and moving around I get it. There is also a device called the smyth realizer, which was developed with electrostatic headphones in mind IIRC, It uses DSP, a couple small mics and some accelerometers attached to your head, to move the 'room', with your head. I can only imagine what that would sound like combined with the Stealth headphones I mentioned.

Now, the bass in your face? the moving air? yes, that is missing. There is room for all of these tools in my life. I'd love to try the realizer, but i'm more focused on speakers and room DSP myself at this point in time.

That being said, yes, there was some snark in there too; fairly good-natured snark, but snark all the same. I found your statement dismissive (and it seems youve doubled down on it since I started typing this ...), as if anyone not listening your way, to music that tries to mimic the live event, is not listening seriously and therefor also, not serious music lovers. I rarely listen to music that requires that sort of suspension of disbelief, to try and recreate the stage and space. A few recordings and maybe more, now that actual live music is few and far between (this saddens me). I still try and catch as much live music as I can, but I dont go home and try to recreate it. Most live recordings I love are either intimate, close miced, or solo performances, which—as mentioned—rather benefit from being recorded from the POV of the artist, more than the listener. So i'm generally looking to faithfully recreate the recording, rather than the performance.

I take my music and musical reproduction pretty seriously (to the point I decided I needed to know how to design and build my own equipment). A good example is the textural delight that is the Moog Voltage Controlled filter (VCF) (or a hammond C3, fender rhodes et al). these instruments are electronic instruments; there is no 'live' in the same sense. They can soar in space, in an entirely unnatural, but nonetheless beautiful and sometimes moving way. but l can tell you it sounds a lot better without influence of the room/stage. You may even want to manipulate it within a 3d/spatial mixing space.

Sometimes I just wanna rock out!! Headphones are superb for that!

Also, the 'left brain'/'right brain' stuff is more ... 'pop science' BTW. New Wave guidance counsellors and artist workshops spent a lot of time on it, but it has no basis in reality. These activities have no propensity toward the left, or right hemispheres https://now.northropgrumman.com/the-left-brain-right-brain-myth-is-it-true/

 

[David Harper]

I did read once that binaural recording and playback thru headphones can sound startlingly realistic but I've never heard it myself. In a live venue they put mics on each side of a dummy human head then the audio picked up by each is played back thru each respective side of the headphones.

 

[Skeptischism]

Yes, thats the same technique used by Smyth linked above for binaural recording/playback, looks like theyve just released a new box, reviewed here I think @amirm ?. yep wow, @phoenixdogfan system sounds pretty amazing IMO. I might choose a different headphone. Not a huge HD800 fan myself, but its very resolving. Again, the technology can be used as part of the performance, or to document the performance.

*note I haven't heard any modded HD800, only stock single ended and balanced. No DSP when I was testing them (or at least not like these kids have access to these days!! ... lol) , so perhaps if you could tame the borderline mid/treble resonances it could be forgiven. I'm just mainly not a fan of their looks.